You Can't Innovate Like Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#21

Post by pmjordan » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 9:15 AM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #17

thought_alarm wrote: post #13

I'm reminded of the story of NUMMI [1], the American automobile plant that was a 1980s joint venture between GM and Toyota. (It was covered in an episode of This American Life). In a nutshell, the story of NUMMI involves American GM workers building Toyota-designed/GM-branded vehicles using Toyota's radically different manufacturing processes. The plant itself was a smashing success for GM; the plant achieved much hi…

> So companies like Microsoft, Motorola, HP, Acer, Nokia, Sony, and Nintendo can only do what they've always done. I'm not sure Nintendo fits well in this list. They have seemed pretty willing to "take risks" (in a controlled way) and do things differently in recent years (since 2002~2003 and the start of the DS project, though they weren't initially as bold with it as they could have been, calling it a "third pillar…

Nintendo also have "only" just over 4000 employees, which makes them 1-2 orders of magnitude smaller than the other companies listed, except Acer. I'm not sure Acer has ever been known for innovation, though, whereas the others kind of "lost it".

In any case, at that size it's probably a lot easier to make drastic changes than when you have 100000 employees. I'd be interested what the lowest number of employees was that Apple has had since Jobs's return, and how big NeXT was compared to Apple at the time of or shortly after acquisition (in terms of headcount).

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#22

Post by thought_alarm » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 9:29 AM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #17

thought_alarm wrote: post #13

I'm reminded of the story of NUMMI [1], the American automobile plant that was a 1980s joint venture between GM and Toyota. (It was covered in an episode of This American Life). In a nutshell, the story of NUMMI involves American GM workers building Toyota-designed/GM-branded vehicles using Toyota's radically different manufacturing processes. The plant itself was a smashing success for GM; the plant achieved much hi…

> So companies like Microsoft, Motorola, HP, Acer, Nokia, Sony, and Nintendo can only do what they've always done. I'm not sure Nintendo fits well in this list. They have seemed pretty willing to "take risks" (in a controlled way) and do things differently in recent years (since 2002~2003 and the start of the DS project, though they weren't initially as bold with it as they could have been, calling it a "third pillar…

    > I'm not sure Nintendo fits well in this list.

I think Nintendo is a great example.

The GameCube was clobbered by the PS2. How did Nintendo respond? Not by trying to be more like Sony but by being more like Nintendo. The point is that it's very difficult change corporate culture, for better or worse.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#23

Post by Angostura » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 9:43 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #10

skeletonjelly wrote: post #8

Lorem Ipsum is Greek huh? How can I read the rest of the article without vexation knowing that the writer can't identify a simple foreign language and a prolific tool of design?

"Greek text" is a bit of industry jargon for placeholder text such as... lorem ipsum.

It has different meanings in different sectors. Typical in desktop publishing tools, such as Xpress and InDesign, 'greeking' occurs when actual representation of letters is replaced by a stylised texture patterns. Usually this occurs at font sizes or zoom levels where it is impractical to accurately render the type on screen.

I must admit that after 20 years in publishing, I've never heard of Ipsum Lorem described as 'greek text', but I'm sure it is possible.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#24

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 10:11 AM UTC

thought_alarm wrote: post #22

masklinn wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So companies like Microsoft, Motorola, HP, Acer, Nokia, Sony, and Nintendo can only do what they've always done. I'm not sure Nintendo fits well in this list. They have seemed pretty willing to "take risks" (in a controlled way) and do things differently in recent years (since 2002~2003 and the start of the DS project, though they weren't initially as bold with it as they could have been, calling it a "third pillar…

> I'm not sure Nintendo fits well in this list. I think Nintendo is a great example. The GameCube was clobbered by the PS2. How did Nintendo respond? Not by trying to be more like Sony but by being more like Nintendo. The point is that it's very difficult change corporate culture, for better or worse.

[deleted]

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#25

Post by ody » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 10:31 AM UTC

"Apple designs for #2. No other mass-consumer products company puts as much attention to detail into the fit and finish of the box—let alone the out-of-box experience."

I'm sorry but no they do not put as much attention to detail into their products as you would think. They didn't even have multitasking in the iPhone until recently! And what was the antenna problems all about?

All I see is just enough attention to detail to make people go "wow, shiney." and that's it.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#26

Post by asmithmd1 » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 10:32 AM UTC

andreyf wrote: post #18

extension wrote: post #3

I think there are plenty of companies that innovate like Apple, but none of them make hardware. You can make a great piece of software with just a few programmers. But making a great gadget requires so many different specialized services and such a large scale operation that it's impossible to get everyone drinking the same kool-aid. If DIY manufacturing ever takes off, that's when you will see Apple caliber products…

Do you really think we'll live to having a DIY manufacturing unit that builds me an iPhone 4?

I think it is closer than you think. It won't be in your home but there will be shops like a Kinkos where you can send a design and pick-up any number of finished products. Check out these people who will turn a design into finished boards in just a few days:

http://www.screamingcircuits.com/

There are probably a dozen companies like them right now, I would guess it will be less than 5 years until there is one in every town.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#27

Post by robgoodlatte » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 10:38 AM UTC

Never tell me what I can't do.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#28

Post by wazoox » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 10:42 AM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #17

thought_alarm wrote: post #13

I'm reminded of the story of NUMMI [1], the American automobile plant that was a 1980s joint venture between GM and Toyota. (It was covered in an episode of This American Life). In a nutshell, the story of NUMMI involves American GM workers building Toyota-designed/GM-branded vehicles using Toyota's radically different manufacturing processes. The plant itself was a smashing success for GM; the plant achieved much hi…

> So companies like Microsoft, Motorola, HP, Acer, Nokia, Sony, and Nintendo can only do what they've always done. I'm not sure Nintendo fits well in this list. They have seemed pretty willing to "take risks" (in a controlled way) and do things differently in recent years (since 2002~2003 and the start of the DS project, though they weren't initially as bold with it as they could have been, calling it a "third pillar…

Just to make it clear : Nintendo really got back to its roots, the Gunpei Yokoi philosophy, after the departure of its old CEO. Before Gunpei Yokoi, Nintendo was making playing cards; he conceived the first nintendo toys (Ultra hand, Ultra machine...) in the 60s, the first Nintendo electronic toys (Love tester, Light gunner ... ) in the 70s, the first Nintendo arcade systems, the Game & Watch concept in the 80s, the Game Boy, the Virtual Boy...

Gunpei Yokoi repeatedly revolutionized markets by recycling well-known technology. For instance the GameBoy went out after the Game Gear. It was obviously inferior technically : black and white, no backlight. However it crushed the competition by providing what was previously oversight : excellent battery life.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#29

Post by cletus » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 10:52 AM UTC

To me, the most important part of this (great) post was that Apple doesn't do market research. It reminds me of a recent episode of Mad Men ("The Rejected", season 4, episode 4).

In this episode, the agency explores the idea of a cream being part of a beauty ritual rather than the traditional approach of linking beauty to matrimony. Near the end there was this exchange:

> Dr Miller: Well, turns out the hypothesis was rejected. I'd recommend a strategy that linked Ponds cold cream to matrimony... a veiled promise.

> Don Draper: A la 1925. I'm not going to do that. So... what are we going to tell the client?

> Dr Miller: I can't change the truth.

> Don Draper: How do you know that's the truth? A new idea is something they don't know yet so of course it's not going to come up as an option. Put my campaign on TV for a year then hold your group again. Maybe it'll show up.

To me this so succinctly sums up the disconnect between market research and the best products.

Take the iPad: I don't know why they decided to do a 10" tablet but I would bet money that they came up with several form factors then Steve Jobs walked into a room, picked one and said that's the one they're doing. This may be an oversimplification but I'm sure it's not far from the truth.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#30

Post by masklinn » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 10:54 AM UTC

pmjordan wrote: post #21

masklinn wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So companies like Microsoft, Motorola, HP, Acer, Nokia, Sony, and Nintendo can only do what they've always done. I'm not sure Nintendo fits well in this list. They have seemed pretty willing to "take risks" (in a controlled way) and do things differently in recent years (since 2002~2003 and the start of the DS project, though they weren't initially as bold with it as they could have been, calling it a "third pillar…

Nintendo also have "only" just over 4000 employees, which makes them 1-2 orders of magnitude smaller than the other companies listed, except Acer. I'm not sure Acer has ever been known for innovation, though, whereas the others kind of "lost it". In any case, at that size it's probably a lot easier to make drastic changes than when you have 100000 employees. I'd be interested what the lowest number of employees was t…

> I'd be interested what the lowest number of employees was that Apple has had since Jobs's return

It probably grew steadily through his tenure, especially with the retail extension as that requires a number of employees (Apple staff grew from ~22000 to ~32000 in 2008, as they opened 50 stores, and their temps staff grew from 2100 to 3100)

> and how big NeXT was compared to Apple at the time of or shortly after acquisition (in terms of headcount).

According to wikipedia, NeXT had 520 employees in 1992, before they switched to a mostly software-based model.