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Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

theguardian.com

431–440 of 478 posts

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the EU is failing. Merkel has spearheaded the importation of millions of people who (along with their descendants) will NEVER thrive in the information economy, and who will accelerate their fiscal demise as their native population ages.

I mean that’s pretty much straight-up, no-ambiguity racism my friend. Kindly take it elsewhere.

While i disagree with OP, I fail to see any mention of race or inferiority/superiority of any culture in his or her comment.

Stating that social integration will fail is definitly not racism. It's forecast, and it has in the past.

It's important to take into account integration if you want the new comers to be happy as well.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#432
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it feels like gradually transitioning to English as the primary language would be the one of the best ways to improve the economy in most EU countries (as well as non-EU countries to some extent) since it would dramatically boost skilled immigration, and also make their citizens more educated and make communication with foreigner easier.

The French would lose their mind if they read your comment. It seems like France has a very strong linguistic inferiority complex compared to all other EU countries. English proficiency in France is among the lowest in the EU. I blame mandatory dubbing. I found it very difficult to find English movies in English, while in countries where subtitling is standard, English proficiency is higher.

French here. It's true and it's a huge problem. People confuse accepting another language in your life and abandoning yours.

They are very attached to their language, it's part of their identity. Some part of france even still have a few people trying to protect a local dialect like the nissart or the breton.

All in all, the ability to speak english is pretty low in france, and I think it hurts the country more than it helps it.

We have our own world for computer... So what ?

It's time for europe to make english an official second language for all countries.

People can speak theit own language as much as they want, but they should all be able to communicate together. Vote together, build together, fill the same forms and share cooking receipes in an easy way.

Having a democracy in 25 languages is too much of a challenge.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#433
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... written by English or American authors, have a very refined way of pleasing the reader. Perhaps you could elaborate on that by contrasting how other languages say German authors writing in German approach the reader. Are they more curt or write in a matter-of-fact manner? How about other non-English language authors? Please expand if you've had the good fortune of reading fiction / non-fiction in various language…

I have the impression that basic German is quite technical. You can be poetic, even very poetic, but it is not easy. You can, however, easily describe the relation of one thing to another in detail. English has about 3 times the vocabulary compared to German. It is easier to use basic sentences compared to German, but the extended vocabulary is where the fun starts - so many beautiful words for poetic things. It is e…

Wikipedia[1] says there are more words in the German dictionary - but I suppose this depends how you count compound words, and what you take as contemporary words, too.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dictionaries_by_number...

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is English your first language?

No, I'm Dutch. Our language has been affected deeply by English. People even make a lot of spelling mistakes because of English. For instance, our government building has a spelling mistake in the sign of their main building, it reads: 'Hoofd Gebouw' but this is wrong in Dutch, because it must be 'Hoofdgebouw' (without the space, but in English you write it as 2 words instead of one). People don't know a lot of Dutch…

As a german who worked as a software dev in the netherlands for 2 years, I could't disagree more. The dutch speak a great english, even the homeless. I've never heard a better american style english anywhere else in europe and I found the dutch english often more clean than even received pronounciation.

Same goes for the code bases, they had the usual mess that codebases have but variable names weren't an issue.

I find your example of childs vs children to be bike shedding, the hard part about coding isn't the variable names. If you read haskell you would probably find "c" for child and "cs" for children, simply to keep the code terse.

While I strongly condone the form of backlash you received, I am still happy that there is pushback.(sorry)

We as software devs battle complexity on a daily basis, and we achieve many of the things we achieve only because of collaboration. Introducing an additional translation step into the process of coding sounds like a complexity nightmare, a debugging nightmare and a communications nightmare.

When working in an international team you still have to talk about the stuff, and as long as something like this doesn't ship with a perfect star trek like universal natlang translator people still have to settle on one language, except that the code they are looking at is now code they've never seen before.

Kudos for the effort, go do it as a hobby but don't be suprised that people get mad just by the very thought of being forced by management to work with something that puts even more complexity onto their shoulders.

And I'm happy that people want collaboration so bad that they are willing to speak and work in a language that they don't understand well in order to connect with peers from all over the world.

And don't take it personal that others don't digg the idea of having to work with something like this. It's a cool idea, it didn't work. Move on and try the next cool idea, one day one of them will stick. You're not the only one to have worked on something and then figured out a year into the project that there is no demand/ its technically unfeasible / there is some obscure paper from the 70s that had the same idea but discovered a fundamental flaw and dropped it.

To quote allan key:

If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#435
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is just a question of orthography. In German, compound nouns are written without space, as a single word. In English, they are usually (but not always) written with space. So "Christmas tree" is "Weinachtsbaum". This is sometimes made out to be much more mysterious than it is, as if German is more "composable" or something, but the only difference is the typographical space. English is just more difficult to spell…

While you are correct to some extent, I do find German to be much more consistent in this regard. In many cases this may just be due to English's distance from it's root (i.e. Latin, French). As it was pointed out below, "syntax" is also a composition of two simpler words - they just aren't words we know. In German, there are also loan words from Latin and French, but I do have the impression it is not to the same ex…

As a German native speaker I find German much more confusing in this regard. Maybe this is because I don't know the rules in English well enough[1] but for German I can give you a few examples of the complications we have to deal with:

From grandparent: > In German, compound nouns are written without space, as a single word.

This is true, but the difficulty is to know when two or more nouns are considered a compound noun (Zusammensetzung) or just a group of words (Wortgruppe).

For example consider the following (real) street names:

- Schleißheimer Straße

- Hohenzollernstraße

- Leuchtenbergerstraße

Straße is simply street. Schleißheim is the name of a place. Schleißheimer Straße is written as two separate words because the rule [2] says that combinations with geographic names ending in -er that signify a place (and not the people living in that place, for example) are usually not considered compounds. A simple counterexample would be Hohenzollernstraße with Hohenzollern referring to the House of Hohenzollern.

Now consider a case like Leuchtenbergerstraße. Leuchtenberger can refer to the place called Leuchtenberg or the Duke of Leuchtenberg. It would be written Leuchtenberger Straße if it had to do anything with the city of Leuchtenberg, maybe leading to that place. If it is named in the honor of the Duke it would be written Leuchtenbergerstraße.

Another problem is that often nouns are not simply slapped together. Adding an additional s (Fugen-s[3]) between the words is very common.

For example: traffic is Verkehr, sign is Zeichen, traffic sign is not Verkehrzeichen but Verkehrszeichen. On the other hand: tax is Steuer and transfer tax is Verkehrsteuer, but not Verkehrsssteuer.

dog is Hund and leash is Leine. A dog leash is a Hundeleine, addding an additional e in this case. Sometimes nothing is added but something removed: crown is Krone, prince is Prinz and a crown prince is a Kronprinz, leaving out the final e in Krone.

Compounding in German is complicated and weird.

[1] The only rule i know is: "It's written as two words, except for a few well known exceptions." I suspect that there is more to it and I'd be happy for any enlightenment.

[2] https://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/rechtschreibregeln/getrenn...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nouns#Compounds

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#436
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russian and French 19c literature are the two obvious counter-examples. I admire the attempt to reframe the question in terms that allow you to claim English is pre-eminent though.

Please name 10 popular high fantasy novels spanning multi thousand pages in French and Russian.

Not the OP, but FWIW Jules Verne was French...

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#437
post #99

I love the English language. It is expressive, it is the language of great literature, and it is in no way „bullying“, no, it brings people all over the world together. There would be no way to talk to a Chinese for me (German) if he had only learned Japanese because Japan is the neighbour and if I had only learned French or Polish because those are our big neighbours. No, English brings us all together, it makes me…

> it is the language of great literature The overall sentiment of your comment is good but I took issue with this particular statement. English is _a_ language of great literature. There's great literature written in basically all languages, you're just less likely to know unless you speak them.

Agreed. As a native Arabic speaker, I would argue that Arabic is the language of poetry.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#438

Citrine ( https://citrine-lang.org/ I am the author) tried to change this with respect to coding (it is a programming language that allows everyone to code in their own language and translate between parties). However, it has been ignored, ridiculed and hated (even death threats). So it has failed and I realize that (I continue to finish it until 0.9 though, because I cant stop in the middle - I am a very neurotic pe…

If anything your project would help the gobalist agenda... I've seen so many companies dismantle their dev teams and outsource the coding to cheap labour in brasil. My guess is such a system, no matter how noble the idea behind its creation, would only lead to management finding the cheapest bloke anywhere on the planet to write their code. Some team at the end of the world who don't even speak english and barely enough $lang to code themselves out of a situation if their lives depend on it.

And corporate will be like "hey they are shit but they're the cheapest! and because our code is language and coder independent we can always move to the next emerging country once the current folks demands a pay raise! evil laugh"

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French would lose their mind if they read your comment. It seems like France has a very strong linguistic inferiority complex compared to all other EU countries. English proficiency in France is among the lowest in the EU. I blame mandatory dubbing. I found it very difficult to find English movies in English, while in countries where subtitling is standard, English proficiency is higher.

French here. It's true and it's a huge problem. People confuse accepting another language in your life and abandoning yours. They are very attached to their language, it's part of their identity. Some part of france even still have a few people trying to protect a local dialect like the nissart or the breton. All in all, the ability to speak english is pretty low in france, and I think it hurts the country more than…

Ha, I can see the headlines now...

"EU to make English official language, Brexit called off"

Language preservation is alive and well here too, parts of Wales are very keen on preserving the language, which interestingly is similar to the Breton language. Whilst living in Wales I once knew a French guy from Breton, he was able to pick up Welsh fairly quickly.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#440
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German just has a real knack for clarity and simplicity because of this composibility. Some examples I like: - Satzbau = Syntax: I always found it hard to remember what syntax meant. The German word, being the combination of "sentence" and "construction" requires no memorization - Teilchen = Particle: In German, "part" + domunitive ending - Jahrhundert, Jahrzehnt = century, decade: literally "year" + "hundred"/"ten"…

It is just a question of orthography. In German, compound nouns are written without space, as a single word. In English, they are usually (but not always) written with space. So "Christmas tree" is "Weinachtsbaum". This is sometimes made out to be much more mysterious than it is, as if German is more "composable" or something, but the only difference is the typographical space. English is just more difficult to spell…

It's not just orthography. English has been influenced by Romance languages and gained a tendency to write "of"s instead of compounds. This reverses the word order (order of words) and adds extra words in between.

There is some bit of composability that German has over English though. It's just easier to pick apart words that have been concatenated. Maybe it's because often the first word is in genitive (roughly means possessive) form?

In your example, "Weinachtsbaum", we have "Weinnacht" (itself a compound wine-night) meaning Christmas, and we have "Baum", tree. But the word gets and extra "s" in the middle which is serving roughly the same purpose as "'s" in English.

Winenight'stree. Tree of night of wine. I prefer the Germanic construction.

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