Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet • Hacker News Board

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#411

Post by matt-snider » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:05 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #373

matt-snider wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German just has a real knack for clarity and simplicity because of this composibility. Some examples I like: - Satzbau = Syntax: I always found it hard to remember what syntax meant. The German word, being the combination of "sentence" and "construction" requires no memorization - Teilchen = Particle: In German, "part" + domunitive ending - Jahrhundert, Jahrzehnt = century, decade: literally "year" + "hundred"/"ten"…

The English etymology is more indirect, but essentially means the same thing, by way of Latin and Greek: c. 1600, from French syntaxe (16c.) and directly from Late Latin syntaxis, from Greek syntaxis "a putting together or in order, arrangement, a grammatical construction," from stem of syntassein "put in order," from syn- "together" (see syn-) + tassein "arrange" (see tactics). https://www.etymonline.com/word/syntax…

It's really interesting reading up on etymologies like that - thanks for the link!

This is what I meant about the meaning being obscured too much, so it has to be simply memorized as one chunk.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#412

Post by oh-kumudo » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:12 AM UTC

pjscott wrote: post #334

brendyn wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some 7000 languages i the world, and maybe half of those even have a writing system at all, let alone libraries full of literature.

There are a few heavy-hitters, though. I'd expect China, for example, to have written some great literature over the years. (Epistemic status: I don't actually know anything about Chinese literature, and I welcome correction on this point.)

Chinese literature is indeed very rich, especially the ancient poetries/verses, from Tang and Song dynasty. They are indeed the essential part of, not only Chinese, but East Asian aesthetics in general.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#413

Post by pvaldes » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:22 AM UTC

tbrock wrote: post #116

geff82 wrote: post #99

I love the English language. It is expressive, it is the language of great literature, and it is in no way „bullying“, no, it brings people all over the world together. There would be no way to talk to a Chinese for me (German) if he had only learned Japanese because Japan is the neighbour and if I had only learned French or Polish because those are our big neighbours. No, English brings us all together, it makes me…

It’s also the lingua franca of tech. There isn’t any way to say “Linux Kernel Networking Subsystem” or “8-Way associative cache” in French or any other language without severe lingual contortions.

Subsistema de red de trabajo del núcleo de linux

Caché asociativa de ocho vías.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#414

Post by oh-kumudo » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:25 AM UTC

I think this attitude, from more liberal media, towards English is interestingly, alternative. I would say after WWII, in a post colonization world, learning English, is a self-conscious, choice. It means access to, not even arguably, the biggest/best/most up-to-date information pool, on this planet, and the economical opportunity comes with it.

As a Chinese national, I would sincerely say learning English is probably the best investment I made during my college, the ROI is incredible. Not to mention, since it is so pervasive, learning English is actually much cheaper than other languages, the barrier is much lower.

Whatever history behind it, English, for its current status in the world, should be considered as an asset for us mankind, that we are finally blessed a pragmatical global lingua franca.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#415

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:34 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #354

dorchadas wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more an issue of culture than anything. They preferred calligraphy, so not many things were done with moveable type (which did exist in China before Europe; it wasn't just woodblock printing). That said, there were still plenty of reports, up to the 19th century, of how widely things were printed and how cheaply they were available in China. The bigger issue is what the culture valued more than anything.

There is no cultural issue when one is between 10x and 100x harder than the other Metallurgy probably evolved as well between the Chinese and Gutenberg systems

The Gutenberg system used lead to cast the letters. As they wore down, they were easily remelted and recast. If you visit the Gutenberg museum in Mainz, they show how this works. It was a critical part of making the printing process efficient.

I have no idea how the Chinese one was done.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#416

Post by simias » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:39 AM UTC

fooker wrote: post #345

andrepd wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be rude, but how many other languages do you speak? There's an almost ineffable depth to nearly every language on this earth, and there are hundreds of them with very large literature corpuses. Naturally, maybe speaking two languages, you are familiar only with literature in those languages. Also, remember that English, being spoken by so many people, its literature is naturally more divulged and wide…

I speak 4 languages and have read literature for 3. The depth and diversity of modern english fiction has no parallel, at least for the genres I enjoy(sci-fi, fantasy, alternative history, thrillers).

The genres you list are very popular in the English world. It's fine of course but to use that to argue for a supremacy of English language literature doesn't strike me as a very solid argument. It would be like saying that Comics are superior to Bandes Dessinees because you enjoy super heroes a lot. Or that American cuisine is the best because you love hamburgers, tex mex and slow cooked meat. Nothing wrong with that but it's very subjective.

The American cultural machine is also incredibly powerful so it can impose its themes everywhere around the world, which also leads to this optical effect, you end up using it as the yardstick to judge everybody else's cultural output.

Beyond that I find this entire thread discussing the potential superiority of English literature frankly odd and rather meaningless. Anybody who can take English, French, German, Russian, Japanese and, say, Chinese literature and pick a winner is frankly an idiot. How can you even begin to judge something like that? We're talking about centuries and centuries, thousands of notable writers, millions of pages, hundreds of genres, from poetry to plays to novels to biographies. Who wins, Jacques Prévert or Tolkien? Yukio Mishima or Isaac Assimov? Mikhail Bulgakov or John Grisham? Fernando Pessoa or JK Rowling?

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#417

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:40 AM UTC

matt-snider wrote: post #411

dredmorbius wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The English etymology is more indirect, but essentially means the same thing, by way of Latin and Greek: c. 1600, from French syntaxe (16c.) and directly from Late Latin syntaxis, from Greek syntaxis "a putting together or in order, arrangement, a grammatical construction," from stem of syntassein "put in order," from syn- "together" (see syn-) + tassein "arrange" (see tactics). https://www.etymonline.com/word/syntax…

It's really interesting reading up on etymologies like that - thanks for the link! This is what I meant about the meaning being obscured too much, so it has to be simply memorized as one chunk.

I ... can spend a lot of time at Etym Online. Some fun finds: vodka, pollution, pen, fiction, dough.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#418

Post by oh-kumudo » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:41 AM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #207

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a British native that works almost entirely with people with English as their second language, mostly remotely. To be effective you need to adapt your language and accent to fit the global English style, and adapt to individual dialects on a country by country basis. It seems a little counter intuitive, but English is genuinely a global language and not owned by the English anymore, so it’s important to adapt to…

> the global English style What distinguishes the global English style? US native here, so perhaps I'm just failing to see past the absence of leftovers from Noah Webster's efforts to violently excise any evidence of French influence from the language, but, to me, Southern English English seems about right for that description.

Tolerance towards misuse of tense/plural, would be my guess. For example, oral Chinese doesn't distinguish between He/She/It, so we often mis{gender} people during conversation, though under the right context, it is clear what actual meaning is thus isn't really blocking effective conversation, but is not correct either.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#419

Post by colechristensen » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:52 AM UTC

twelvechairs wrote: post #349

geff82 wrote: post #99

I love the English language. It is expressive, it is the language of great literature, and it is in no way „bullying“, no, it brings people all over the world together. There would be no way to talk to a Chinese for me (German) if he had only learned Japanese because Japan is the neighbour and if I had only learned French or Polish because those are our big neighbours. No, English brings us all together, it makes me…

Maybe the greatest success and failing of English is that it has never undergone the rigour of standardisation of many other languages. While most other world languages have all at times had a central authority dictating what is right or wrong, English has a history of pluralism (particularly from American vs. British English, but also from other sides). This makes for difficulties (regional variation, different pron…

It wouldn't, couldn't go through standardization like that.

The article misses emphasizing or properly mention English's success started not in conquering but overcoming conquerors.

It's hard to think of English as having a single source, as what remains of that gets very small as you go back in time. The language in England and thereabouts overcame several invasions. Roman, Viking, a couple of invasions you'd call French now, among others... they all left their mark, or more accurately the native population absorbed a sizable portion of the invaders' language and established and re-established the dominance of the English language in the area.

If you take a beginners' course in French you'll probably get the line that English is 60% French, badly pronounced and it's true! (more or less)

It would sure be hard to standardize something that has a habit of repeatedly bolting on large chunks of other languages, nevermind it's modern regional inconsistencies.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#420

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:56 AM UTC

j9461701 wrote: post #343

autocorr wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can be argued that the European Union has failed/is failing, at least partially, because of a lack of a common language. In the peak periods of the Roman Empire, Latin was the Lingua franca that enabled business transactions, along with Roman law, the precursors of civil law as a framework. The interesting thing though is that the Roman Empire is a great example of a bilingual state. Greek was known to all Roman…

It's not directly pertinent, but the slow triumph of Greek culture over Roman culture after the conquest of Greece is one of the most fascinating parts of ancient history. The Roman elites not only spoke Greek, they sent their kids to learn in Greek schools, they regarded Greece as the center of drama, philosophy, medicine..it's really quite amazing how deeply enamored with Greece the upper echelons of Roman society…

[deleted]