Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet • Hacker News Board

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#361

Post by briandear » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:08 AM UTC

devit wrote: post #113

wallflower wrote: post #63

In many European countries, you cannot get a good job (like one with an international company) unless you can communicate in English at CEFRL B1 proficiency [1]. China may very well become the largest economy in the world, and there is no way that Chinese, as a multi-toned, symbolic language, will ever become the Lingua franca, as it is near impossible for most adults to learn, in contrast to English [2]. It can be a…

Yeah, it feels like gradually transitioning to English as the primary language would be the one of the best ways to improve the economy in most EU countries (as well as non-EU countries to some extent) since it would dramatically boost skilled immigration, and also make their citizens more educated and make communication with foreigner easier.

The French would lose their mind if they read your comment. It seems like France has a very strong linguistic inferiority complex compared to all other EU countries. English proficiency in France is among the lowest in the EU.

I blame mandatory dubbing. I found it very difficult to find English movies in English, while in countries where subtitling is standard, English proficiency is higher.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#362

Post by tachyonbeam » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:13 AM UTC

jcranmer wrote: post #181

tbrock wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also the lingua franca of tech. There isn’t any way to say “Linux Kernel Networking Subsystem” or “8-Way associative cache” in French or any other language without severe lingual contortions.

Système de réseau de noyau Linux? Cache associatif de 8 sets? Those aren't severe linguistic contortions...

Your Google translation is no good. Sets is an English word, and it would be associative (feminine form). That being said, the reason I, as a French speaker working in tech/research, prefer to discuss tech in English, is because:

1. There is always new terminology being invented in conferences or bleeding edge R&D. There is no official translation for most of these terms. You could translate them, but most people wouldn't be quite sure what you mean.

2. Anything I write in English is immediately accessible to 20x more people. Writing about tech in French means sacrificing most of my audience. English really is the lingua franca of tech.

It doesn't bother me at all, even though it's not my native language. The world needs a lingua franca (of tech and everything else), and English fits the bill quite well. It's much less overcomplicated than many other languages. I make many more grammar mistakes in French, because French grammar is full of arbitrary nonsensical rules. No thanks.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#363

Post by briandear » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:19 AM UTC

sudosteph wrote: post #79

I was surprised that such an in-depth article about linguistic dominance had so little to say about Latin. Historically, Latin in Europe seems to have filled a very similar role to that of English today, though not at the same scale perhaps. Even languages that weren't full-on adaptations of Latin have adapted Latin alphabets and words. The modern English we speak today has funny little relics of Latin grammar norms…

Occitan is all over the place in the South of France. Even city signs are in both French and Occitan. In some towns, even the street signs are bilingual, though I actually never heard anyone actually speak it. I was determined to learn it when I lived in Avignon, but I couldn’t find anyone to actually use it with! I had much more luck with just focusing on the southern French accent instead. My kids speak with a distinctive Avignonaise accent, saying “le pang” instead of “le pain” for instance. But to your point Occitan is apparently being taught in French schools in the South, but I think it’s an elective if I remember correctly.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#364

Post by briandear » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:22 AM UTC

malloryerik wrote: post #247

The article is incorrect in its description of South Korean children increasingly having their tongues snipped in order to pronounce English words better. That procedure was only done rarely, as far as I can tell from about 2002 to 2004. Immediately attracting heavy news attention there was even a government-sponsored video to scare people away from the procedure, which is virtually non-existent today. Fret not, ther…

I love Korea, but it is literally the most racist and nationalistic place I have ever been. Japan might be just as racist, but in my experience, they are exceptionally polite about it.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#365

Post by dzhshnacct » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:23 AM UTC

tbrock wrote: post #116

geff82 wrote: post #99

I love the English language. It is expressive, it is the language of great literature, and it is in no way „bullying“, no, it brings people all over the world together. There would be no way to talk to a Chinese for me (German) if he had only learned Japanese because Japan is the neighbour and if I had only learned French or Polish because those are our big neighbours. No, English brings us all together, it makes me…

It’s also the lingua franca of tech. There isn’t any way to say “Linux Kernel Networking Subsystem” or “8-Way associative cache” in French or any other language without severe lingual contortions.

actually even the english way is quite cumbersome

languages like sanskrit and chinese which have built in word generators and preserved root meanings are much better and able to stand independently

not surprisingly indians and chinese have been better able to resist westernization

imo chinese is a very tech friendly language and has a good shot at becoming the lingua franca of tech in the near future

currently the chinese focus on science and innovation is fake and forced but could turn real in the next generation

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#366

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:23 AM UTC

lgessler wrote: post #351

brendyn wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some 7000 languages i the world, and maybe half of those even have a writing system at all, let alone libraries full of literature.

Does a work need to be written to have literary merit?

No, but strictly oral works are not very accessible unless someone writes them down. (Or, I suppose, records them.)

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#367

Post by njarboe » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:26 AM UTC

gcb0 wrote: post #342

tbrock wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also the lingua franca of tech. There isn’t any way to say “Linux Kernel Networking Subsystem” or “8-Way associative cache” in French or any other language without severe lingual contortions.

I thought that too. until I had to talk in english full time and realized how much was transliterated informally in conversations and how those terms were corrupted into the national language. what you call lingual contortion only seem odd (to me and you since you also mentioned a romance language) because romance languages were the trend setters at some point and now have very refined processes to change the languag…

"roman dominion over the channel"

Do you mean how the Normans conquered and ruled England after the invasion of 1066? Lots of foreign words come into a language when your rulers speak another language. Often the conquered populations are completely converted to the ruling people language.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#368

Post by nyolfen » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:26 AM UTC

doc_gunthrop wrote: post #348

fooker wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I speak 4 languages and have read literature for 3. The depth and diversity of modern english fiction has no parallel, at least for the genres I enjoy(sci-fi, fantasy, alternative history, thrillers).

Surely it helps that English borrows heavily from the Romance languages, among others.

some people are so earnest to cast aside or denigrate their culture in a display of cosmopolitan/xenophilic signaling.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#369

Post by psergeant » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:29 AM UTC

> Elevating English while denigrating all other languages has been a pillar of English and American nationalism for well over a hundred years

I wonder if there’s a country without a manufactured language where that’s not true.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#370

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 5:45 AM UTC

l9k wrote: post #185

chrisper wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then explain to me why the French are using Go, To etc. instead of TB and GB like everyone else?

Octet is actually a more precise word as it implies there are 8 bits (or people, or things...) Byte only represents a group of bits.

Technically true, and there were some weird-ass byte sizes in the early decades of computing, but the 8-bit byte has been universal for, I think, around 40 years now?