The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective • Hacker News Board

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#81

Post by ethbro » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 3:44 AM UTC

mplewis wrote: post #72

imbruglia wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to be negative. But I have seen enough of these sort of initiative over the years to be skeptical. In reality it seldom makes sense to do it yourself. Few things in general needs to be built or invented. If they do chances are they aren't the ones to do it. It almost always makes more sense acquire the capability to do what you want somewhere else. But as soon as you do that all the edgy rhetoric and potential…

Providing access to otherwise-inaccessible drugs is a real problem. The fact that normal people can accomplish this through an anarchist collective is incredible and should be lauded.

“Pursuing science is a human right,” Laufer said. “In fact, it’s the human right from which all other rights flow. You have to be able to do whatever you want to your body and to think the way you want.”

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#82

Post by citrablue » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 3:46 AM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #76

citrablue wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that moment, representing the barriers to safe and effective medicine as something that one can throw from their pockets. In the long term, bring drugs to people without thorough testing and regulations. It's one thing for e.g. stage 4 cancer. It's another to let a Vioxx get through. Strict regulations around the development and testing of drugs exist because no human is capable of evaluating efficacy for themselv…

They also exist because it's INSANELY profitable to be able to hold someone hostage for their literal life. As long as the IP is tightly controlled and the ever-stricter regulations build your moat for you, you'll make insane money. Look, I agree this isn't likely to be the scalable and safe solution that solves the cost crisis. But maybe we DO need someone to throw pills out for free just to show the absurdity of ou…

What if he is wildly successful and brings down the profitability of future drug development by an order of 10x? And because future profits aren't as certain, investors decide to put their money elsewhere and those drugs aren't ever explored?

I am not suggesting this is the truth, or even a prediction. But I reject the emotionally charged language that people use to say there are no downsides.

There are always potential downsides; it is a dangerous way of thinking to be unable to see possible negativities and use that as certainty of a position. Otherwise, there's just no downside to Pascal's Wager, and we all must believe in God.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#83

Post by gnicholas » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 3:49 AM UTC

thatcat wrote: post #79

gnicholas wrote: post #69

> At the pharmacy, a pair of single use Mylan epipens can cost over $600 and the company’s generic version costs $300 per pair, but an ongoing shortage means you probably can’t find them, even if you can afford them. This was true years ago but not anymore. CVS sells a generic epipen two-pack for $109 [1]. Still not cheap, but let’s not pretend that these cost $300 and are not even available. I wanted to like this ar…

The 109 price seems like the market responding to the 30 $ diy epipen hack released 2 years ago. https://www.collective-evolution.com/2016/10/01/hackers-prov...

It was definitely a response to the shortage and bad publicity around epipens. Not sure it’s possible to know which was the more direct cause. It could have just been CVS going for some good publicity.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#84

Post by ethbro » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 3:54 AM UTC

phyller wrote: post #67

eezurr wrote: post #62

>Although the initial clinical results with cabotegravir were extremely promising, Four Thieves grew impatient with waiting for it to become commercially available. (The drug is currently undergoing Phase III FDA trials, which means it’s being clinically tested on a large cohort of human subjects.) >After Four Thieves synthesized cabotegravir, it was just a matter of convincing at-risk populations to use it. Accordin…

It's ironic to me that some anti-control people that buck against the system don't seem to have a problem when it's them making decisions for others. Making the drug and trying it on yourself is one thing. Sharing it with someone else who understands you and how you made it is somewhat similar. Convincing random people who don't know you to take it is crossing some sort of line, and setting up a situation where peopl…

Their point that the paternalist-legal argument falls in the face of life-or-death circumstances has merit though.

How many unprosecuted crimes have been allowed in the course of war? Because it "had to be done"?

Prohibiting access to highly addictive narcotics? Makes some sense.

Prohibiting personal access to whatever you want to put in your body otherwise? Not such a strong argument.

If people want to risk killing themselves trying to cure their Hepatitis C infection, that's their business. In the same way we allow them to smoke, drink alcohol, drive vehicles, and own firearms.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#85

Post by mabbo » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 4:03 AM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #81

mplewis wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Providing access to otherwise-inaccessible drugs is a real problem. The fact that normal people can accomplish this through an anarchist collective is incredible and should be lauded.

“Pursuing science is a human right,” Laufer said. “In fact, it’s the human right from which all other rights flow. You have to be able to do whatever you want to your body and to think the way you want.”

> You have to be able to do whatever you want to your body and to think the way you want.

The problem with most libertarian ideas like this is externalities. If you take something made incorrectly and become incredibly sick, society has to either take care of you or let you die- and no one wants to let people just die. So instead, society foots the bill for taking care of you.

I'm not saying these guys aren't fighting a damn good fight. They're in the right, in my mind. But if they start a large enough movement with enough people then someone somewhere is going to eventually cut a corner or make a mistake and get someone killed or made seriously ill. And what then?

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#86

Post by anonu » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 4:04 AM UTC

This sort of reminds me of the ability to 3D print guns. Technology gets cheaper and more efficient and ultimately democratizes access to "things"... Physical printed items, transportation, drugs... I think we're only scratching the surface here with this.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#87

Post by peteretep » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 4:09 AM UTC

> These precursors are controlled by the federal government ... they’d make medicine from poison [by using the street drugs to get back to the precursors]

cf: “A Simple and Convenient Synthesis of Pseudophedrine from N-Methylamphetamine”

https://heterodoxy.cc/meowdocs/pseudo/pseudosynth.pdf

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#88

Post by comicjk » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 4:11 AM UTC

darawk wrote: post #29

zxcmx wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose for the same reason people still create movies, despite the fact that they are easily copied and expensive to produce.

If you want your medicine quality to go from hollywood blockbuster to home movie, I guess that's viable :).

What OP is saying is that movies are already copyable and yet blockbusters are still being made.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#89

Post by blhack » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 4:22 AM UTC

darawk wrote: post #20

blhack wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if we could just rich people to find their projects. /s

Ok. Let's imagine a world where he achieves his dream. We've democratized access to molecular synthesis with no quality issues. Anyone, anywhere can safely and effectively produce any medicine of their choosing, without regard for IP laws. Now what? Well, on the one hand, everyone on earth will have cheap, timely access to every medicine that currently exists. That's pretty awesome. On the other hand, who's going to…

Yes I agree with you. Apparently it wasn't obvious from my /s, but the entire narrative around this is absurd.

There are people in this thread who seem to be both decrying capitalism, and also asking that extremely rich venture capitalists fund the projects with their riches.

It's absurd. Capitalism has given us the most prosperous, longest living, most peaceful grouping of people in the history of mankind. The drugs these people are synthesizing exist BECAUSE of capitalism.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#90

Post by eezurr » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 4:35 AM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #84

phyller wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ironic to me that some anti-control people that buck against the system don't seem to have a problem when it's them making decisions for others. Making the drug and trying it on yourself is one thing. Sharing it with someone else who understands you and how you made it is somewhat similar. Convincing random people who don't know you to take it is crossing some sort of line, and setting up a situation where peopl…

Their point that the paternalist-legal argument falls in the face of life-or-death circumstances has merit though. How many unprosecuted crimes have been allowed in the course of war? Because it "had to be done"? Prohibiting access to highly addictive narcotics? Makes some sense. Prohibiting personal access to whatever you want to put in your body otherwise? Not such a strong argument. If people want to risk killing…

You assume people understand the risks involved. I dont think they are capable of understanding the risks without having a background in chemistry. It's myopic to give uneducated people the ability to do chemistry in an uncontrolled environment that does not have proper ventilation, disposal, and safety/sanitary equipment.

Tobacco, alcohol, driving vehicles, and fire arms have all been regulated to limit use to prevent as much collateral damage as possible. It's no longer just their business when they're behind a steering wheel or holding a gun, or smoking/drinking in public.