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Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

theguardian.com

171–180 of 478 posts

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then explain to me why the French are using Go, To etc. instead of TB and GB like everyone else?

They actively avoid loan words from English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Académie_française#Anglicisms

Except weekend. They couldn't come up with a better word for that ;)

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#172
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant, it's pretty well reinforced with capitalization or accentuation when speaking ("do NOT! do this"). You're saying in Spanish you can accentuate it like this: "do not, NOT do this"?

More like this: "No haga nada sin pedirme permiso." Word for word: "Don't do nothing without asking me for permission." Meaning: Don't do anything without asking me for permission.

The funny thing is that, in colloquial English, "Don't do nothing without asking me for permission." means "Don't do anything without asking me for permission".

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#173

Citrine ( https://citrine-lang.org/ I am the author) tried to change this with respect to coding (it is a programming language that allows everyone to code in their own language and translate between parties). However, it has been ignored, ridiculed and hated (even death threats). So it has failed and I realize that (I continue to finish it until 0.9 though, because I cant stop in the middle - I am a very neurotic pe…

Interesting language, made me dive in on this Wikipedia rabbit hole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_...

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#174
post #40

The internet is mentioned in passing, but the reason that English is dominating is that the vast majority of science, engineering and academia in general is published in English, and then is quickly added to the English language Wikipedia. If you want to be at the cutting edge of global technology, it is just easier (and sometimes important) to be able to read English directly. Translations can be problematic, partic…

Interesting -- do you think translators will slowly become obsolete before software "solves" the translation problem? Do you ever think there will be a point in the future where everyone can speak fluent English? It would seem the path of least resistance would be to eliminate the need for translators, and I'm not sure we'll live in a future where everyone speaks N languages, and just uses an app to translate between people.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#175
post #19

Considering that English has basically emerged as a "pidgin" languages, taking elements from the languages of various peoples coming to the islands -- Britons, Romans, Saxons, Danes, French etc -- and being simplified in the process, it's only logical that it is adopted far more easily than other languages with even more speakers -- Chinese, Hindi, Arabic -- or that were expanded around the globe in a similar fashion…

In previous centuries French and Spanish were dominate. English emerged in the last century for political reasons, not because it was easy to speak/learn. I'm pretty sure Greek and Latin filled a similar role, but I don't know my history well enough to claim it as a fact.

> In previous centuries French and Spanish were dominate.

‘dominant’. I dominate; I am dominant.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#176

I think instead of chiding people who use English as a second language "poorly", we should look at their mistakes for what they are - the influence of another language - and see if we can't incorporate the ideas that caused them into English, if the ideas are good. Newspeak isn't fiction, languages really do shape how you think. We should continue evolving English to be suitable for expressing more modes of thought.

> we should look at their mistakes for what they are - the influence of another language - and see if we can't incorporate the ideas that caused them into English, if the ideas are good.

Except it doesn't work like that. Languages change because native speakers change them, not because some grammatical body adopts things and tries to force it on everyone.

> Newspeak isn't fiction, languages really do shape how you think.

Yes, it is fiction, and no, languages do not shape how you think. This is known as linguistic relativity [1] and it's strong form has been _thoroughly_ debunked, whereas the weak form is highly skeptical, with most arguments coming from Lera Boroditsky, who fails to control for several factors and also hasn't yet published her famous study on the matter (which was set to be published roughly 16 years ago).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#177
post #57

English is such a horrible language to learn, I pity non-native speakers. On that basis, the rule is: you're not allowed to criticize another person's English, unless it's their native one. They didn't ask for this language, it was forced upon them.

It's not as hard as you think. Compare all the tenses in Spanish to English, for example. I live in Mexico and my peers usually think English is relatively easy.

Also, the US exports so many quality tv shows and movies that it's easy to find good English-native material for learning. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't know Disney movies. Meanwhile, try finding good Mexican television.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#178
post #116
post #99

I love the English language. It is expressive, it is the language of great literature, and it is in no way „bullying“, no, it brings people all over the world together. There would be no way to talk to a Chinese for me (German) if he had only learned Japanese because Japan is the neighbour and if I had only learned French or Polish because those are our big neighbours. No, English brings us all together, it makes me…

It’s also the lingua franca of tech. There isn’t any way to say “Linux Kernel Networking Subsystem” or “8-Way associative cache” in French or any other language without severe lingual contortions.

Tangential: it's worth noting that this is a historical circumstance rather than something that has to do with French in itself. When a new domain arises that a language didn't previously have words for, like computing, "home-grown" (as opposed to borrowed) words can be more or less successful. Take the French Academy for example, whose attempts at purging French of English loanwords[1] has had mixed success. (And see also the Central Hindi Directorate[2].)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise#A...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Hindi_Directorate

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#179
post #149
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also the lingua franca of tech. There isn’t any way to say “Linux Kernel Networking Subsystem” or “8-Way associative cache” in French or any other language without severe lingual contortions.

> “Linux Kernel Networking Subsystem” How do they say this in Japanese? In Chinese (Mandarin/Cantonese)?

In Chinese, "Linux内核网络系统", literally "Linux Kernel Network System". Unlike Japanese and Korean, the Chinese language generally uses full meaning-to-meaning translations of technical terms as much as possible, and only occasionally uses phonetic nouns (e.g. 安卓 "Anzhuo" for Android) or English words (e.g. "Linux").

Chinese does, however, use phonetic transcriptions for proper names of people and places. This leads to some very unfortunate contortions, as the Chinese language is much less suited to phonetic transcription as compared to syllabary-based languages like Korean or Japanese. There's no "one obvious way" to map a foreign name onto the Chinese sound-set, and even when you do, there's likewise no obvious way to choose the corresponding characters (and you must be cautious to avoid characters with unwanted meanings or connotations).

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#180

In many European countries, you cannot get a good job (like one with an international company) unless you can communicate in English at CEFRL B1 proficiency [1]. China may very well become the largest economy in the world, and there is no way that Chinese, as a multi-toned, symbolic language, will ever become the Lingua franca, as it is near impossible for most adults to learn, in contrast to English [2]. It can be a…

EU has/is failing? I guess - in a glass-half-empty way - like everyone around the world is dying.

EU deliberately promotes multilingualism and, I'd argue, successfully[1]. English is (deservingly and also ironically) the most common language spoken in EU.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/sep/26/europe...

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