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Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

theguardian.com

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Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#111

Post by raverbashing »

barking wrote: post #6

My unsuccessful forays into foreign language learning have convinced me also that none are as simple and logical as our own beautiful language, English, innit?

You're missing an /s ;)

> simple and logical

That's why though/thought/through are pronounced the same way. And similarly for height/weight

That's why the plural of feet are feets or the plural of child is childs, right? Oh wait...

That's why a kid cat is a catty, a kid dog is a doggy and a kid swan is a swanny. Right?

And why the past of get is begotten and the past of can is canned.

And why you should call the police if you see a murder of crows.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#112

Post by toufka »

wallflower wrote: post #63

In many European countries, you cannot get a good job (like one with an international company) unless you can communicate in English at CEFRL B1 proficiency [1]. China may very well become the largest economy in the world, and there is no way that Chinese, as a multi-toned, symbolic language, will ever become the Lingua franca, as it is near impossible for most adults to learn, in contrast to English [2]. It can be a…

Both Chinese and English are interesting and relatively unique in how lossy they can be and still convey information. And I think that's a significant benefit in being a lingua franca.

And chinese can be learned - see any trader in a nation on the Chinese border. Tonality isn't that bad, actually - especially when the language isn't unintelligible when the tones are wrong - same as how English isn't unintelligable when vowels are wrong (unlike Japanese for example).

Written Chinese is, however, a big stumbling block to its universality. Though, given how rarely I even write English without a computer aiding me, that distinction is becoming less meaningful.

I've come to see most everyone knows three languages: that of their parents, that of their state, and English. The advantages of having those three be the same are significant.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#113

Post by devit »

wallflower wrote: post #63

In many European countries, you cannot get a good job (like one with an international company) unless you can communicate in English at CEFRL B1 proficiency [1]. China may very well become the largest economy in the world, and there is no way that Chinese, as a multi-toned, symbolic language, will ever become the Lingua franca, as it is near impossible for most adults to learn, in contrast to English [2]. It can be a…

Yeah, it feels like gradually transitioning to English as the primary language would be the one of the best ways to improve the economy in most EU countries (as well as non-EU countries to some extent) since it would dramatically boost skilled immigration, and also make their citizens more educated and make communication with foreigner easier.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#114

Post by danieltillett »

craftyguy wrote: post #80
wallflower wrote: post #63

In many European countries, you cannot get a good job (like one with an international company) unless you can communicate in English at CEFRL B1 proficiency [1]. China may very well become the largest economy in the world, and there is no way that Chinese, as a multi-toned, symbolic language, will ever become the Lingua franca, as it is near impossible for most adults to learn, in contrast to English [2]. It can be a…

It's mildly interesting how you (and the article) use 'Lingua franca' (Latin) and not it's English meaning of 'common language'. Edit: s/Italian/Latin/

The English would actually be 'common speech' - the word language is Latin.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#115

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

Analemma_ wrote: post #74
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're really talking about orthography.

No, English is pretty rough in both orthography and phonology: while it's nowhere near as bad as e.g. Chinese, English has a large number of vowel sounds compared to most languages, and several uncommon consonants that many people struggle with if not exposed from birth.Note how many non-native English speakers, no matter what their first language, struggle with dental fricatives ("th").

Dental fricatives are somewhat 'poor' sounds generally - they don't have a lot energy, so they tend to be difficult to recover in noisy environments. And note that even in English dialects these dental fricatives have a tendency to shift to other sounds (e.g. to alveolar stops).

While English pronunciation/inventory may be harder than say Spanish or Italian, I think it's pretty middle-of-the-road compared to other languages in terms of size of inventory/difficulty.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#116

Post by tbrock »

geff82 wrote: post #99

I love the English language. It is expressive, it is the language of great literature, and it is in no way „bullying“, no, it brings people all over the world together. There would be no way to talk to a Chinese for me (German) if he had only learned Japanese because Japan is the neighbour and if I had only learned French or Polish because those are our big neighbours. No, English brings us all together, it makes me…

It’s also the lingua franca of tech. There isn’t any way to say “Linux Kernel Networking Subsystem” or “8-Way associative cache” in French or any other language without severe lingual contortions.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#117

Post by ricankng787 »

gabordemooij wrote: post #98

Citrine ( https://citrine-lang.org/ I am the author) tried to change this with respect to coding (it is a programming language that allows everyone to code in their own language and translate between parties). However, it has been ignored, ridiculed and hated (even death threats). So it has failed and I realize that (I continue to finish it until 0.9 though, because I cant stop in the middle - I am a very neurotic pe…

I'd argue almost no one is having their language and culture taken from them (that was certainly the case in other times in history, but I find it difficult to find one today). There's nothing stopping you from learning another language, or using another language 50-70% of the time.

This is a completely transactional phenomenon. You want to communicate with more people, and be understood in almost any part of the world, and possibly make more money doing just about any job? Speak English.

Also, I notice the web page to your project is written in English, I imagine it was done for mass appeal right? That's kind of the point.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#118

Post by albertgoeswoof »

raverbashing wrote: post #101
wcoenen wrote: post #83

Thought experiment, or maybe just a crazy thought: what if the European Union would prefer to stop using English after a hard Brexit and starts looking for an alternative lingua franca . What if a EU directive was then issued, mandating Esperanto as a de jure national language in each of the member states, in addition to the existing national languages. Schools all over the EU start to offer it as the first choice fo…

Not plausible, they would still have 2 members where English plays an important role: Ireland (though not the 1st official language) and Malta

Most people in Ireland don’t speak Irish, English is just not the official language for political reasons

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#119

Post by pertymcpert »

Symmetry wrote: post #95
wallflower wrote: post #63

In many European countries, you cannot get a good job (like one with an international company) unless you can communicate in English at CEFRL B1 proficiency [1]. China may very well become the largest economy in the world, and there is no way that Chinese, as a multi-toned, symbolic language, will ever become the Lingua franca, as it is near impossible for most adults to learn, in contrast to English [2]. It can be a…

Is that true? Chinese has tones but English has a huge number of distinct vowel sounds to distinguish between and often has syllables with both two consonants in front and two in back, like "thrones". In terms of bits per syllable they're both near the top, in contrast to languages like Spanish or Japanese. That's just spoken Chinese though. Writing in a language that doesn't use an alphabet or syllabary is of course…

There are some things easier in Mandarin, but I still think it's far more difficult than English.

The number of homophones is much higher than English.

Re: Behemoth, bully, thief: how the English language is taking over the planet

#120

Post by chrisper »

tbrock wrote: post #116
geff82 wrote: post #99

I love the English language. It is expressive, it is the language of great literature, and it is in no way „bullying“, no, it brings people all over the world together. There would be no way to talk to a Chinese for me (German) if he had only learned Japanese because Japan is the neighbour and if I had only learned French or Polish because those are our big neighbours. No, English brings us all together, it makes me…

It’s also the lingua franca of tech. There isn’t any way to say “Linux Kernel Networking Subsystem” or “8-Way associative cache” in French or any other language without severe lingual contortions.

Then explain to me why the French are using Go, To etc. instead of TB and GB like everyone else?
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