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No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

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Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#131
post #24
post #5

Of course you can rationalize that 3% is a reasonable cost and approximately a wash compared to the expense of dealing with cash. But if you're a small coffe house, and sell a $3.00 coffee, and are paying a typical 2.9% + $0.30 per charge, that $0.30 is ten percent of your sale. That's a huge cost. Transaction fees need to come way down for plastic to beat cash on small sales.

>paying a typical 2.9% + $0.30 per charge that's for paypal/square, which usually mean card not present, low volume and flat (fee) rate. bigger merchants usually go with a payment processor that offers interchange+, which significantly reduces the fees. a quick check of https://www.adyen.com/pricing/full-list?navItem=northamerica says that visa cards only pay $0.12 + interchange (1 or 2%). edit: visa interchange rate…

It's more than you think.

>Interchange++ consists of the following components:

>Interchange fee charged by the banks who issued the card

>Scheme fee charged by the card schemes

>Applicable acquirer markup

More than likely, you'll pay $0.12 + 1.7% interchange on average for card fees + 1.x% in Adyen's fees if you're a small business.

It takes serious volume to get steep discounts, and the entire industry is full of snakes. If your business does enough volume, keep shopping around and pitting people against each other.

I recently renegotiated our rate down to interchange + 2 basis points. (0.02%) along with very reasonable terminal fees, the whole process took several months.

My advice? Focus on growing before optimizing these things.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#132
post #89

I use a credit card for 95%+ of my transactions. At the same time, I'm scared of a cashless future. As the article mentions, cash transactions are one of the last vestiges of privacy that we have. A future where the US looks like China, where all of your transactions are visible, is not something I want to see. Additionally, cash is an equalizer for the unbanked/underbanked. Financial institutions take advantage of a…

You're afraid of the loss of privacy, then immediately suggest block chain as a solution to a related problem.

It's ridiculous on the face of it (especially as they suggest Ethereum), but there are in fact blockchains that preserve the anonymity of the people involved in the transaction. I'm a little sad these distinctions aren't more well-known.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#133
post #112
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would a restaurant prefer anything over cash? Because there is a dramatic reduction in costs from going completely cashless. You don't have to pay for security for cash-on-hand. You don't have to pay for an armored car to transport cash to a bank. If you don't want to pay for an armored car, you don't have to pay (and trust) an employee to do it for you, else paying with your time by doing it yourself. You can…

Every now and then this will backfire on the business. For instance, what happens if the system goes down? I was recently in a cashless place that suddenly lost internet access as the cashier(?) was ringing up my food. With no way to charge me I was given my lunch for free and everyone in the line behind me was forced to wait.

The mastercard network was down recently (maestro cards also operate on it), which did really bad things to basically everything that accepted only plastic. Of course you know in the abstract that this full plastic stuff is a bad idea (it's so obvious), but it's very sobering still to see this in practice.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#134
post #110
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, make the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip contacts, curled up in the heat of the clothes drier), know what that balance is, and if I don't have this singleton plastic token that I cannot easily replace or trade, I can't go to certain places? This is a gross exaggeration. > I have to stop, wait, find my wallet Because y…

You don't need your liscense (or other id), if you're not driving. (Often, it's a good idea to have, but it's not required for citizens in the US). Another thing is I can give $20 to a reasonably responsible child and ask them to fetch me a burrito. It's not a good idea to do that with a credit or debit card; I would have authorized them, but if challenged they may not be able to complete the transaction and may have…

The world is bigger than the US, and in a lot of places in the world it is indeed mandatory to carry some form of ID.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#135
post #83

I don't really understand the american need for a credit card. In germany, I pay almost everything either in cash or via bank transfer, usually pull. I got a prepaid card a while ago, mostly to pay for american services (seriously, I only ever pay to american corporations with it). My debit card (EC card) is almost universal and directly connected to the bank account, no credit needed. CC is barely supported, EC is a…

In the US, credit card transactions are reversed in case of fraud (no questions asked, super easy), but if someone lifts your pin and empties your bank account over debit, you’re on your own. This actually makes it more dangerous to use debit vs running it as credit. Also while you don’t want to take on debt you can’t pay, there’s nothing too complex about debt and credit. Businesses all largely do their accounting l…

The reason you think debt is good/acceptable is largely cultural. This definitely isn't the norm in other parts (or even most of) the world.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#136
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm being absurdly argumentative? Because I don't agree with your vague waffling when you are confronted with the implications of your ideas. If you don't mean X, then don't say X. You can't be a customer if I don't let you be a customer. When you walk up to a counter and say "I would like to buy these things" you are not a customer yet. You are giving an "invitation to treat". An invitation the establishment may dec…

In encountering dozens, perhaps hundreds of uses of the very well worn cliche "customer is always right" only once has the conversation or article suffered because it did not fully spell out, in legally precise language, all and every possible exception to the generality that everyone knows is but a convenient generalisation. Some customers may be committing fraud, other customers will abuse the privilege, shares may…

> Most find that a useful shorthand in achieving concise and clear discussion, that helps to avoid overly formal and long grandiose Victorian circumlocution, without finding it vague waffle. Something I am eternally thankful for.

This is what I'm talking about. You are exaggerating to absurd extremes. No one is using "overly formal and long Victorian circumlocution" here. And I literally pointed out where you explicitly said things that run counter to your claim that you didn't mean those things you said.

> "most customer-centric company"

This one can technically probably be measured along some metric. A company that is actively hostile towards its customers can be said to be less customer-centric than one that doesn't.

> Quite, and yet you write "What if all I have is corn? I'm a customer."

This is disingenuous. You are the one arguing on the basis of anyone in the shop being a customer. I'm showing you, from your perspective, how quickly the adage breaks down. It doesn't matter that it doesn't cover every, single incident. The problem is that it doesn't even really cover most incidents.

> you're not offering legal tender or any other form of recognised currency.

That's not a requirement to be a customer.

> As the article points out 7.5% in the US are unbanked. 12% aren't on the net.

And? Not being able to go to one burrito shop is hardly going to harm anyone. Not to mention, this is how things change. That 7.5% is going to go down. There's a large portion of people who don't receive any sort of cash. They can't be "customers" either. What happens if they want something?

And I know what you're going to say: Yeah, but money has to be earned. No shit. And you have to do something someone else feels is worthwhile in order to earn that money. It is inherently discriminatory. But we accept it.

> Legal tender is currently cash

You have that backwards. Cash is currently legal tender. But so are electronic payments. Like someone else pointed out, electronic payments are currently the currency in general use.

> I would encourage requiring businesses to accept legal tender (subject to any legislated limitations on paying large amounts in small change that many countries already limit).

Give with one hand, take with the other. Already you accept the premise that a business can restrict the forms in which you pay. You buy into that. You just think the line should be drawn where you're comfortable with it.

> You're not yet a customer and you're not offering legal tender or any other form of recognised currency. Which is why it is clearly absurd and takes the discussion away from the actual topic in TFA - the rise, and potential discrimination, of cashless.

These statements are in conflict with each other and that's what people are trying to tell you. Discrimination you accept is still discrimination.

> That's a far larger and problematic discrimination than "no hats". I won't be discriminated against, just inconvenienced.

By not being allowed in the establishment? You can't just call discrimination you're comfortable with "inconvenience" and pretend it's not discrimination.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, credit card transactions are reversed in case of fraud (no questions asked, super easy), but if someone lifts your pin and empties your bank account over debit, you’re on your own. This actually makes it more dangerous to use debit vs running it as credit. Also while you don’t want to take on debt you can’t pay, there’s nothing too complex about debt and credit. Businesses all largely do their accounting l…

The reason you think debt is good/acceptable is largely cultural. This definitely isn't the norm in other parts (or even most of) the world.

Absolutely. I meant to make that point when I said “In the US...” since the parent poster said they didn’t understand why Americans favor CC over debit cards. I thus gave the reasoning. Had we in America been given the same given circumstances as in Germany I’m sure we would be using debit.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#138

Here's a weird question. Why hasn't the U.S. Government made an electronic cash platform with zero transaction fees yet? This should be something that falls under the treasury, it would help cut down on fraud and provide a backbone for small businesses and large businesses alike. Being able to pay debts is basic infrastructure for an economy and transaction fees are a giant tax on small businesses and large businesse…

There is at least a kernel of this idea in a national postal bank.[0] [0] http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2014...

In Italy the national post service (which also doubles as a bank) offers dirt cheap Visa Electron debit cards called Postepay (no recurring fee, 5€ una tantum for the card, 1€ fee everytime you deposit money into the card), and the minimum age for requesting one is 14. This fostered some competition from other banks which started to offer products with similar prices and even more features (like the ability to send or receive wire transfers).

The national student card (which can be used to obtain discounts at museums and other cultural places) now also doubles up as a Postepay, so now basically every kid owns a free debit card that can use physically or online as he wants.

Something like this can really speed up card's adoption while avoiding discrimination and in fact this is what I've seen since I was a kid and I had to borrow my dad's card: now all my little cousins own their own little yellow debit card in their name and even use it often in their daily life.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#139

Here's a weird question. Why hasn't the U.S. Government made an electronic cash platform with zero transaction fees yet? This should be something that falls under the treasury, it would help cut down on fraud and provide a backbone for small businesses and large businesses alike. Being able to pay debts is basic infrastructure for an economy and transaction fees are a giant tax on small businesses and large businesse…

The Federal Reserve provides both ACH and FedWire.

So it seems like the backbone exists and gets used heavily. The next step would be a way for person to person transfers of money and person to business, business to person, etc. It seems like business to business already does, the major piece left out is a consumer account. i.e. there's no card you can use to directly send money from your account to your kid at college. Everything still requires some company as an intermediary.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except our postal codes are A#A #A#. I've definitely had trouble buying gas at American pumps before, and the staff couldn't figure out a solution.

From your postal code "A#A#A#", it becomes "###00" at the pump. Near the border, most pumps will have this as a sign on them. But I was recently in Florida and that worked fine for paying at the pump.

Oh! Very cool! I'll keep that in mind next time I'm down south!

It was in Florida where I ran into the problem... Definitely no sign where I was :)

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