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Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

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Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#121

Post by untog »

jsonne wrote: post #119
untog wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP simply said that Obama's statement is not under investigation because it did not break the law. The leave campaign advertising did break the law, so it is. That's usually how criminal investigations work.

And I'm saying that whether or not you "broke the law" isn't a very interesting argument to me because some truly horrific things are legal and some perfectly mundane ones aren't. Simply being a law isn't a compelling argument in my mind as to whether something is right or wrong. At the same time you can undermine the spirit of something while being perfectly legal. The original argument was about people attempting t…

But no-one is discussing whether it is right or wrong. The original question was "what about Obama's statement?" in the context of the legal investigations against the Leave campaign. The "what about" answer is "there is no criminal investigation because nothing illegal happened".

I get what you're saying but it doesn't really have any relevance here. If you're disregarding legality then any questions about why a criminal investigation happened vs didn't is moot.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#122

Post by detaro »

rayiner wrote: post #62
RubenSandwich wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, quite a few of these are very xenophobic. Very much playing off of an anti Middle East sentiment. I'd specifically like to highlight these ads in this document: https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/cultu... . 2924.jpg 2966.jpg 2968.jpg

What is "xenophobic" about those three images? Turkey is currently undergoing a very public internal war between western secularism and Islamic fundamentalism. Why would a western country want to enter into democratic union with such a country at this stage? Not every judgment regarding other countries is "xenophobic." Imagine if Alabama or Mississippi were trying to join the U.S. today. Would it be "xenophobic" of C…

> Why would a western country want to enter into democratic union with such a country at this stage?

It wouldn't, and that's why claiming "turkey is joining the EU" is highly misleading. Turkey is far from becoming an EU member, a process which was started in "brighter times", and the UK has control over that status ever changing.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#123

Post by belltaco »

oh_sigh wrote: post #61
RubenSandwich wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, quite a few of these are very xenophobic. Very much playing off of an anti Middle East sentiment. I'd specifically like to highlight these ads in this document: https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/cultu... . 2924.jpg 2966.jpg 2968.jpg

How are any of those xenophobic? To me that sounds similar to labeling someone as antisocial if they don't want a stranger living in their house.

Why do you need an analogy for that? It's quite literally someone who doesn't want someone of a different ethnicity as their neighbor, which is xenophobic.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#124

Post by commandlinefan »

dane-pgp wrote: post #28
to_bpr wrote: post #16

It's disappointing, but not surprising, that the focus seems to be entirely on the "wrong" side of the "desired" outcome. At this point it amounts to fighting very hard to find any reason to undo a democratically determined result.

If just 1% of the population of the UK changed their voting intention (from Remain to Leave) because of illegally bought or misleading advertising, then undoing that effect would mean that Remain would have won. Invoking the "democratically determined result" is begging the question, since we don't really know whether the result would have been the same if the Leave campaign hadn't broken the rules: https://www.thegu…

So you're saying that you believe that governments should begin imposing censorship laws on privately held companies (a foreign one in this case) because without censorship, people who were susceptible to being convinced to do something were convinced to do so? And you really don't see the problem with that?

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#125

Post by nailer »

petepete wrote: post #70
noncoml wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do know that UK could have vetoed the entrance of Turkey, Macedonia, etc in EU...

Of course they do. They also know that migrant workers have a positive impact on our economy. They also know the unelected bureaucrats are elected and held to account. And they also knew that there would be issues around Northern Ireland's border that wouldn't be easy to resolve. And they also knew that... I'm bored now but you get the picture.

MEPs do not propose legistlation, that is done by a seperate group, the European Commission.

The European Commission is not directly elected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

> There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.[3] One of the 28 is the Commission President (currently Jean-Claude Juncker) proposed by the European Council[5] and elected by the European Parliament.[6] The Council of the European Union then nominates the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and the 28 members as a single body are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[7] The current Commission is the Juncker Commission, which took office in late 2014, following the elections for the European Parliament in May of the same year.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#126

Post by derriz »

growlist wrote: post #98
derriz wrote: post #47

This isn't the only shenanigans surrounding the leave campaign. Here's another example of dodgy Leave Campaign funding - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 - where the DUP, a Northern Irish party, was given $600,000 to campaign for Leave by a shell company and spent most of it on advertisements in media that wasn't even available in Northern Ireland. But it's not surprising really. There has been a…

Why do you think these stories have traction in the UK? Do you think the UK has no legitimate grounds to question EU membership?

To answer your second question, of course it has.

I don’t understand your first question? Those anti-EU stories were lies pure and simple - all the references are provided on the linked site. Are you in favour of the media publishing lies in order to advance a political viewpoint?

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#127

Post by detaro »

RubenSandwich wrote: post #22
kodablah wrote: post #3

Starting reading an article on some info handed over, ended up reading a politicized article. Can someone link me the source this article is using for the new news? I'm having a hard time finding it in the inline links of the text. EDIT: Via [0], I found the docs at [1]. Tech Crunch is a shameful, op-ed joke of a site. 0 - https://twitter.com/DamianCollins/status/1022437025667014656 1 - https://www.parliament.uk/docu…

Wow, quite a few of these are very xenophobic. Very much playing off of an anti Middle East sentiment. I'd specifically like to highlight these ads in this document: https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/cultu... . 2924.jpg 2966.jpg 2968.jpg

I find 2942 a stronger example. Not even about membership or job competition (as strenuous that is in many cases), just about visa-free travel. I guess the "official" reading of that is "illegal immigration", it's just helpfully not mentioned?

Generally that type seems very weak on actual arguments instead of what I suppose is intended to be a general feeling of uneasiness, and projecting powerlessness despite UK governments being part of the processes. (Although the latter sadly isn't unique to the UK when it comes to dealing with the EU, governments love to play the victim of decisions they helped decide the way they were decided)

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#128

Post by [deleted] »

lostlogin wrote: post #36
dane-pgp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If just 1% of the population of the UK changed their voting intention (from Remain to Leave) because of illegally bought or misleading advertising, then undoing that effect would mean that Remain would have won. Invoking the "democratically determined result" is begging the question, since we don't really know whether the result would have been the same if the Leave campaign hadn't broken the rules: https://www.thegu…

I think the overriding point is that a simple majority is completely the wrong format for descisions like this. I’d have suggested a two thirds majority requires for change. There is also the argument about them stifling debate. There is an intersting criticism of the format in the below link from Chris Patten “I think referendums are awful. The late and great Julian Critchley used to say that, not very surprisingly,…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#129

Post by tomp »

lostlogin wrote: post #36
dane-pgp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If just 1% of the population of the UK changed their voting intention (from Remain to Leave) because of illegally bought or misleading advertising, then undoing that effect would mean that Remain would have won. Invoking the "democratically determined result" is begging the question, since we don't really know whether the result would have been the same if the Leave campaign hadn't broken the rules: https://www.thegu…

I think the overriding point is that a simple majority is completely the wrong format for descisions like this. I’d have suggested a two thirds majority requires for change. There is also the argument about them stifling debate. There is an intersting criticism of the format in the below link from Chris Patten “I think referendums are awful. The late and great Julian Critchley used to say that, not very surprisingly,…

> I’d have suggested a two thirds majority requires for change.

Which position would you consider the "default"? Slavery? Prohibition on gay marriage? Ban on abortion? (All of these were "changed" through history, some very recently.)

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#130

Post by nailer »

kodablah wrote: post #3

Starting reading an article on some info handed over, ended up reading a politicized article. Can someone link me the source this article is using for the new news? I'm having a hard time finding it in the inline links of the text. EDIT: Via [0], I found the docs at [1]. Tech Crunch is a shameful, op-ed joke of a site. 0 - https://twitter.com/DamianCollins/status/1022437025667014656 1 - https://www.parliament.uk/docu…

Indeed - I've flagged the article as it's clickbair and insanely partisan:

> In the case of Brexit Central/BeLeave, their ad creative was more subtle in its xenophobia — urging target recipients to back a “fair immigration system” or an “Australian-style points based system” but without making any direct references to any specific non-EU countries.

How is arguing for skilled migration xenophobic? TechCrunch has become Buzzfeed.

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