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IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

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Re: IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

#11
post #8

Honest question: how much top-tier ML research comes out of IBM Research? I feel like they get what they paid for---and they pay shit from what I hear.

I'd be very interested in other's opinions, but my observation is that high quality research != good products. There's a major disconnect between the labs and those building/selling the products.

Re: IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

#12
That's okay, though, right? We're not talking about fully automating diagnosis and treatment. We're talking about using a tool to help doctors diagnose and treat more effectively.

i.e. it's more like predictive text input than anything. If it makes it faster for you to diagnose, makes harder to diagnose stuff easier, and recommends the right treatment most of the time then it saves the doctor some time and energy.

The only question is whether it does that.

Re: IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

#13

We're putting a lot of faith in tools that can best be described as immature. I don't think it's out of the question to get A.I. (not speaking of Watson, which is A.I. adjacent) to the point where it can perform perfectly at human intelligence tasks. The point is to have these systems perform better than their human counterparts (at least, I think that should be aim for something like Watson for Health). The people w…

Totally agree. Applying existing ML/"AI" to treating cancer is extremely misguided, and IMO dangerous and unethical.

ML performs very well for specific well defined tasks that have an obvious outcome and are highly narrow in scope.

Cancer is a disease that we can't even treat ourselves in many cases. It requires a great deal of creativity and critical thinking to reach solutions on a case by case basis. Who is so arrogant they thought this should be replaced by a bunch of overhyped software?

Re: IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

#14
post #8

Honest question: how much top-tier ML research comes out of IBM Research? I feel like they get what they paid for---and they pay shit from what I hear.

Should have partnered with Google if you actually wanted something that works. IBM had its heyday, but the brain drain of talent and knowledge has already happened and it likely will never recover.

Re: IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

#15
post #8

Honest question: how much top-tier ML research comes out of IBM Research? I feel like they get what they paid for---and they pay shit from what I hear.

I don't think that top-tier research is necessarily equal to top pay. Otherwise universities would not stand any chance.

That said, I don't think IBM Watson has published much top-tier research.

Re: IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

#16
post #7
post #3

Out of something from science fiction.. would an "issue" like this ever be the type of problem where the AI can "understand" the cancer better than we can and see where a certain treatment might be more beneficial than we've thought of? Or is this just a plain old failure?

Not to mention that even if the AI technology here was decent (which it doesn't appear to be) it suffered greatly from a dearth of samples. Machine learning requires big data, and cancer treatment data is, in many instances, just not big enough. An AI solution would need millions of well-labeled, perfectly formatted cases to learn from; there may be thousands of those for a particular subtype of cancer, but there's n…

Not if you understand mechanism. In reality the breakthrough will be biologists applying ML/AI, not the other way around. Domain and mechanistic knowledge are king.

Re: IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

#17
post #3

Out of something from science fiction.. would an "issue" like this ever be the type of problem where the AI can "understand" the cancer better than we can and see where a certain treatment might be more beneficial than we've thought of? Or is this just a plain old failure?

The example in the article given was that Watson recommended giving a blood thinning agent to someone with "severe bleeding", so I think, at least in this example, that there's a long way to go until Watson is ready for diagnosing without a doctor's consent and review.

Re: IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

#18

That's okay, though, right? We're not talking about fully automating diagnosis and treatment. We're talking about using a tool to help doctors diagnose and treat more effectively. i.e. it's more like predictive text input than anything. If it makes it faster for you to diagnose, makes harder to diagnose stuff easier, and recommends the right treatment most of the time then it saves the doctor some time and energy. Th…

The other question is how does it compare to human doctors, they also sometimes recommend unsafe or wrong treatment.

Re: IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments

#19
post #15
post #8

Honest question: how much top-tier ML research comes out of IBM Research? I feel like they get what they paid for---and they pay shit from what I hear.

I don't think that top-tier research is necessarily equal to top pay. Otherwise universities would not stand any chance. That said, I don't think IBM Watson has published much top-tier research.

University work tends to pay in different ways. Lots of opportunity for your own projects, cool toys, small teams that report directly to the owner.
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