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Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

blogs.scientificamerican.com

81–90 of 92 posts

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#81
post #72
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge spectrum in the amount of each type of athletic play children have done. I think most of that "natural" ability is still down to practice. Tiny innate differences and advantages push people in certain directions, which means they practice those more (through play, to start with), and pretty quickly there are big apparent differences.

Have you ever engaged in any sport and seen young people develop? You would immediately see that some people just "get it" and are better than others. They are faster, stronger and move better. The superstars are the ones who combine talent with hard work.

My experience with youth sports is that the kids who "just get it" are the ones who have been watching/playing sports since very young with their family and friends. My family wasn't really in to watching sports and it took me a while as a kid to figure out that that's why everyone else on the team knew how to play and I didn't even know the basic rules. Looking back it would have helped me a lot if a practice or two was devoted to learning how the game actually worked.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#82
post #78

I think the article makes "epiphany" sound rather extraordinary. But in the normal course of learning music there are plenty of them which we tend to ignore for some reason. For example: if you learned to ride a bike as a kid, you'll remember a moment where your balance just "locked in" and there you were riding for an arbitrary amount of time. Now take twelve-bar blues on the piano: say you spend some weeks or month…

Western music has a fairly simple base system, with only 12 tones in total its much easier to get by ear than other systems like classical Turkish music which has 9 microtones within the space of one half step. It would be interesting to see how universal this phenomena is or whether its actually partially a byproduct of western music being relatively simple and easy to get by ear, even classical pieces like Beethova…

The turisk have 9 microtones per full step. This gives the scale more 'perfect' sounding pitch.

Musical scales have a very sound physical basis. Two notes sound good together when their frequencies easily ring together. For instance, an octave (which is present in all music all over the world, but just called differently) is two notes where one note has double the frequency of the other. So one note will make a full period while the other makes two. This is pleasant, but a tad boring. You can make an octave of your octave, still pretty, still boring. It's a dead end.

The next pleasant sound is when one note makes 2 periods and the other 3. These are your forths and fifths in western music. These intervals give endless possibilities. A forth of the fifth gives back your base note, similar to a fifth of your forth. But! Fifth of fifth and forth of forth go endless. Each will result in a new note that sounds less pleasant but more interesting together with the base note.

(the forth is the inverse of the fifth: forth(fifth(base)) = base AND fifth(forth(base)) = base. I'll only talk about fifths hence forth)

A scale is an 'arbitrary' bunch of these notes together sorted by pitch. All scales used in the world can be constructed out of fifths. How many fifths to make a scale? We usually stop when the note is _almost_ equal to the base; that way there is an even representation of the frequency spectrum whilst having many notes that sound good together. For instance, western music, the 12th consecutive fifth almost sounds like the base (it's frequency is 1.3% off) The microtonal scales 53th consecutvit fifth is only 0.21% off. The pentatonic scale which uses only 5 notes, is 5.3% off.

   5 notes: 5.3% error
   7 notes: 6.8% error
  12 notes: 1.3% error
  41 notes: 1.1% error
  53 notes: .21% error
So you see that pentatonic is nice and easy, cause your instrument only needs to play 5 notes and all is pleasant. The next amount of notes you need for a smaller error is 12, then 53. So you could say things about effectiveness of amount of notes here.

Another remark: western classical music uses the 12 note scale, but pop music often limits itself to only seven of those.

Here is some psuedo code to play with it yourself:

  BASE_NOTE_A = 880
  def note(n):
      f = BASE_NOTE_A * (3/2)**n
      while f > BASE_NOTE_A:
          a = a/2
      return a
plotted results: https://pasteboard.co/Hwd7VCw.png

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#83
There's a book "Drawing on the Right Side of Your Brain" where the author shows before and after self-portraits made by students who attended her five-day (40 hours) drawing course. The difference is immense -- childish drawings before and good realistic portraits after. And she shows the whole group, not just a few prodigies. The whole idea of the book is that drawing is not hard -- the hard thing is to see what is in front of your eyes as opposed to what you mind thinks you're supposed to see. (And this, of course, applies not only to drawing.)

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#84

I think the article makes "epiphany" sound rather extraordinary. But in the normal course of learning music there are plenty of them which we tend to ignore for some reason. For example: if you learned to ride a bike as a kid, you'll remember a moment where your balance just "locked in" and there you were riding for an arbitrary amount of time. Now take twelve-bar blues on the piano: say you spend some weeks or month…

It's remarkable how similar this is to learning programming. Anyone remember the lightbulb moment of grokking pointers? And there you were writing C for an arbitrary amount of time t for 0 React devs probably have a moment when react suddenly makes sense. In all four cases (bicycling, music, pointers, react) what makes the difference is dogged persistence. One day you'll wake up and things will seem simple -- and the…

This is still what I tell people in interviews was my most difficult technical challenge. I had nothing but an old 386 and the K&R book -- no Stack Overflow back in those days, and I didn't know any programmers well enough to ask them for help. It was the first time in my life I ever truly grinded on a task. It happened just suddenly, and it was glorious, and I've been chasing that feeling ever since. "Hey, kid, you wanna fly?"

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#86
post #79
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural talent certainly exists. I used to be into boxing. Trained 6 times a week really hard for many years and improved a lot of from where I started. From time to time we would have some new guy come who clearly didn't know anything about boxing or fighting. But within weeks he would learn and get better than almost anyone else in the gym. He would be faster and punch harder. In the same way Mozart was able to com…

> 10.5 over 100m I can run a 10.5 after a lot of training, so maybe it's my ego talking here, but I refuse to believe this! I think you must just not have been aware of the training this person did. If they could really run a 10.5 in high school with no training, then with minimal effort they could bring their time down enough to qualify for most any country's Olympic team. A 10.5 100m is good enough to win the high…

Anthony Joshua, a professional boxer got 11.53 in a 100m

He doesn't train to run, but he's still an elite athlete in a sport that require explosiveness.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#87
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people underestimate the amount of discipline that it takes to get good at something, and overestimate the amount of time it takes. I learned WAY more in one summer of programming 16 hours a day than I did in a year of classes where I was supposedly immersing myself in learning. When I say that I was programming 16 hours a day, I was. That was _all_ I did. But I came out the other side with a much better…

I think most people underestimate the amount of discipline that it takes to get good at something, and overestimate the amount of time it takes. Truer words have never been spoken, across all kinds of domains. When I was a fat desk nerd and decided to become a Marine, I was surprised at how quickly I was able to transform my body and gain the required physical skills - once I found the motivation and discipline. Ditt…

What did you do to train?

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#88
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever engaged in any sport and seen young people develop? You would immediately see that some people just "get it" and are better than others. They are faster, stronger and move better. The superstars are the ones who combine talent with hard work.

My experience with youth sports is that the kids who "just get it" are the ones who have been watching/playing sports since very young with their family and friends. My family wasn't really in to watching sports and it took me a while as a kid to figure out that that's why everyone else on the team knew how to play and I didn't even know the basic rules. Looking back it would have helped me a lot if a practice or two…

I did a lot of sports growing up but I had to accept that there are people who start out at a level that I can never achieve no matter how hard I try. I still get a lot of benefit from it but u think it's wrong to tell people they can hang with top athletes if they put in the work. It raises unrealistic expectations.

On the other hand I am much better at software development than a lot of other people with the same background. It was always easy for me to comprehend things and then I also put in a lot of work.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#89

I think the article makes "epiphany" sound rather extraordinary. But in the normal course of learning music there are plenty of them which we tend to ignore for some reason. For example: if you learned to ride a bike as a kid, you'll remember a moment where your balance just "locked in" and there you were riding for an arbitrary amount of time. Now take twelve-bar blues on the piano: say you spend some weeks or month…

It's remarkable how similar this is to learning programming. Anyone remember the lightbulb moment of grokking pointers? And there you were writing C for an arbitrary amount of time t for 0 React devs probably have a moment when react suddenly makes sense. In all four cases (bicycling, music, pointers, react) what makes the difference is dogged persistence. One day you'll wake up and things will seem simple -- and the…

I seem to go through a similar experience every time I need to design a recursive algorithm... after writing and rewriting a bunch of crap code, it finally clicks and I can write the REAL function (which is usually just a few lines and amazingly elegant).

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#90
post #21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one related to savant syndrome: "Daniel Tammet first came to worldwide attention in March, 2004 on international Pi Day (3/14 of course) when he recited, from memory, Pi to 22,514 decimal places." https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/professional/savant-...

However, Tammet has been a savant from childhood, so he's a case of a better-known phenomenon. He didn't suddenly acquire previously unknown unusual abilities in adulthood. (Learning conversational Icelandic in a week is amazing, but he already anticipated that he could do it!)

Actually, he had a different name and was a memory competition champion who practiced every day. Instead of mentioning that, he decided to blame his entire abilities on a fever he had as a kid. Not to put him down or anything, but a lot of it is PR.

Under the name Daniel Corney he even advertised PSYCHIC services. Definitely his abilities are incredible, but he also spent hours and years practicing them.

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