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No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

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Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#71

Post by dionidium »

18pfsmt wrote: post #68
dionidium wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're giving good-faith rebuttals to arguments that weren't offered in good faith. Nobody actually has trouble leaving the house with their wallet. That's not a real problem that intellectually average people actually have.

I don't own a wallet. I keep my license and debit card in my vehicle, and my one credit card in my desk at home. I pay cash for everything but gas, except online purchases. I've been operating this way for most of life. Treating people as if they're degenerates or below intellectually average for not using plastic (or staying away from Facebook) is uncalled for.

>Treating people as if they're degenerates or below intellectually average for not using plastic

I don't think there's anything wrong with choosing not to use plastic and I didn't say there was.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#72

Post by mortenjorck »

notduncansmith wrote: post #57
mortenjorck wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What card-only establishments really need is what cash-only bars and diners have had for years: an on-premises method of conversion. It would effectively be a reverse ATM, that you could feed cash and get a prepaid card (minus, of course, an ATM fee). If something like this doesn’t exist, it seems like a good startup opportunity.

Reverse ATM would be a cool startup, especially if you could make online payments or acquire cryptocurrencies in addition to getting prepaid cards. After a quick search, it looks like someone in Portland tried to do something along these lines: https://www.atmmarketplace.com/news/reverse-atm-caters-to-po... It doesn’t look like it went anywhere, online info on the company is scant apart from a few press releases. Bas…

All good points. If the install market for these is fast-casual restaurants, it's probably not unreasonable to cap them at something like $20 per transaction. While the cards should be reloadable, they could probably also have limits for both carried balance and reload frequency, and the presence of human staff at restaurants should also deter money-laundering activity.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#73

Post by bowlich »

It feels to me like we're moving away from cards back to cash in the last decade:

- Gas stations offering cash discounts

- Stores requiring minimum purchases for cards

- Restaurants adding a service fee to use a card

I don't think I every came upon these three items a decade ago, and now they seem standard.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#74

Post by hoopleheaded »

rimliu wrote: post #47
electroSurveil wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel weird spending at places like this at all. Not just because of what it does to other people, but also how it modifies my own behavior. What if it had been me? I can't leave the house with just a twenty in my pocket? That's not good enough? I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, know what that balance is, make sure the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip c…

In Denmark and Sweden it is simple: you are likely to have your phone with you, and thats enough. MobilePay and Swish respectively are wildly popular solutions.

That is a non-cash solution which is insubstantially different from a plastic card.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#75

Post by NeedMoreTea »

dionidium wrote: post #58
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until such point as all businesses have achieved cashless and there is no choice in the matter left, for anyone. That's the stated endpoint of this game. Why do you think Visa are offering $10k prizes for businesses that can go fully cashless? It's not for the customers. I would make a point of not supporting such a business but if I'm in a minority and cashless catches on...

It's fashionable to regard de jure and de facto outcomes identically, but I don't find such arguments compelling. It's a distinction that matters . Further, I'm in the minority on a whole bunch of topics, but that's not evidence that a harm or an injury has taken place.

Which is why we need legislation to prevent exclusion of significant minorities be they the disabled or poorer people. I'm more than comfortable for businesses that wish to trade on the high street to be required to fit a ramp to their doorway, inductive coils for hearing aids, and required to take cash.

If we end up cashless it will be the poor and elderly who will have the most difficulty. Even now, well over 10 years after the switch, it's reasonably common to see elderly folks in supermarket or bank struggling with chip and PIN.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#76

Post by scarface74 »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #32
hartator wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you buy a prepaid debit card at a Walmart? I think it's probably fine to let the business decide whatever means of payment they want to accept.

Why should you have to? Once upon a time the customer was always right. A business was supposed to serve the customer's needs and did what was necessary to achieve that. Now the business can insert multiple middlemen with commissions and transaction fees and the damn customers can just fall into line. Sharpish please, and no complaints or we'll close your account. Do we not see a problem travelling down this road? Or…

When you don’t deal in cash, you don’t have to worry about robbery either at the store or during the transport of the momey to the bank.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#77

Post by scarface74 »

United857 wrote: post #43

This article burys the lede -- from the last paragraph: Take the overdraft fee, a punishment for desperate or careless customers that netted banks $15 billion in 2016. As many as half of overdraft fees aren’t assessed at an ATM, where customers can see their balance, but at the point of sale—debit card transactions at the counters of shops and restaurants. And the majority of overdraft fees, the Consumer Financial Pr…

At least with my bank, if you don’t have the available cash on your card and you don’t have enough in a linked savings account to cover a transaction, you will be declined when you try to pay.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#78

Post by NeedMoreTea »

ac29 wrote: post #56
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should you have to? Once upon a time the customer was always right. A business was supposed to serve the customer's needs and did what was necessary to achieve that. Now the business can insert multiple middlemen with commissions and transaction fees and the damn customers can just fall into line. Sharpish please, and no complaints or we'll close your account. Do we not see a problem travelling down this road? Or…

There are plenty of legitimate reasons for a business to not want to take cash (employee time in cash handling likely adds at least 5% in payroll overhead, theft can also be an issue in retail at least). You may want to pay in bitcoin, nickels, or with bushels of corn, but that doesn't mean any of them are practical or desirable for the business owner on the other end.

Having to deal with the elderly or disabled adds overhead from employee time or premises adaptations. All that changes is the disenfranchised group. All should be considered discrimination. Maybe it's the European perspective but I welcomed it when the UK required all premises to be wheelchair accessible, even though I am able bodied. I'd equally welcome making accepting the country's currency mandatory as I don't believe society should be excluding any significant groups.

Another reductio ad absurdum? Like I replied to bena before you, with well known adages and slogans it's the core idea that matters, not to take it so literally as to permit payment in corn. Corn is not the currency in general use, cash is. Do you take every slogan and adage entirely literally?

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#79

Post by closeparen »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #78
ac29 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons for a business to not want to take cash (employee time in cash handling likely adds at least 5% in payroll overhead, theft can also be an issue in retail at least). You may want to pay in bitcoin, nickels, or with bushels of corn, but that doesn't mean any of them are practical or desirable for the business owner on the other end.

Having to deal with the elderly or disabled adds overhead from employee time or premises adaptations. All that changes is the disenfranchised group. All should be considered discrimination. Maybe it's the European perspective but I welcomed it when the UK required all premises to be wheelchair accessible, even though I am able bodied. I'd equally welcome making accepting the country's currency mandatory as I don't be…

>Corn is not the currency in general use, cash is.

No, it isn't. That's the point.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#80

Post by closeparen »

cannonedhamster wrote: post #27

Here's a weird question. Why hasn't the U.S. Government made an electronic cash platform with zero transaction fees yet? This should be something that falls under the treasury, it would help cut down on fraud and provide a backbone for small businesses and large businesses alike. Being able to pay debts is basic infrastructure for an economy and transaction fees are a giant tax on small businesses and large businesse…

The Federal Reserve provides both ACH and FedWire.
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