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No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

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Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#61

Post by ac29 »

gringoDan wrote: post #8
ams6110 wrote: post #5

Of course you can rationalize that 3% is a reasonable cost and approximately a wash compared to the expense of dealing with cash. But if you're a small coffe house, and sell a $3.00 coffee, and are paying a typical 2.9% + $0.30 per charge, that $0.30 is ten percent of your sale. That's a huge cost. Transaction fees need to come way down for plastic to beat cash on small sales.

An even more extreme example would be a grocery store, whose overall profit margins are only 1-3%.

Where'd you get that data? I looked up Albertson's and see they have a 43% gross margin and a 23% net margin: https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/financial-highlights/...

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#62

Post by rahimnathwani »

reaperducer wrote: post #22
rahimnathwani wrote: post #6

Where I live (Beijing, China) is far ahead: - Most (or maybe all) beggars accept mobile payment by WeChat and/or AliPay - I cannot recall any time in the past year where a shop, fruit stall or street vendor could not accept mobile payment - There is a high-end food court nearby where none of the restaurants accept cash. If you can't pay by card/mobile, you need to go to a special counter on the ground floor, and exch…

ahead For varying definitions of "ahead" in this context. Being monitored, followed, tracked, tabulated, bought and sold doesn't sound like "ahead."

I said ahead, not better

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#63

Post by jonahhorowitz »

ac29 wrote: post #51
orangechairs wrote: post #18

To echo what others have said, cashless systems -- especially in fast food chains -- are a quick way to discriminate against a whole population of the underbanked. I was in Dos Toros (burrito chain mentioned early in the article) about a month ago, and the woman in line ahead of me didn't have a card. She got so embarrassed at the register despite having ample cash to pay for her meal. I paid for her with my card, sh…

The question to me is, why does this population exist in such great numbers? I understand not having good credit, but having access to a checking account with a debit card doesn't seem like it should be insurmountable. The last checking account I opened just took $5 to open the account (technically a "membership" fee at a credit union). No any proof of employment, income, ar assets was needed [0], and I left with a d…

They did run a credit check though, and if you don't have a high enough credit score, they won't give you a debit card - they'll only give you an ATM card.

Also, what could be called credit-union deserts. Lots of people don't have access to a credit union, and the large banks charge huge fees on poor people (see "the high cost of being poor"[0]). Past that, some of the above poor people have had terrible experiences with banks and want nothing to do with them. It easily adds up to that ~10% mentioned in the article.

[0] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05...

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#64

Post by jonahhorowitz »

cannonedhamster wrote: post #27

Here's a weird question. Why hasn't the U.S. Government made an electronic cash platform with zero transaction fees yet? This should be something that falls under the treasury, it would help cut down on fraud and provide a backbone for small businesses and large businesses alike. Being able to pay debts is basic infrastructure for an economy and transaction fees are a giant tax on small businesses and large businesse…

There is at least a kernel of this idea in a national postal bank.[0]

[0] http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2014...

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#65

Post by bena »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #55
bena wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right Like the bit says, even when the phrase was becoming popularized, people saw the inherent flaw in it. The customer is right, within reason. You are complaining about a cashless business, one that won't accept the minted currency of the nation. Which could be a fair complaint. But if we are to hold to the maxim that the customer is always right, then if I insi…

Like most adages and slogans it's the core idea that matters, not to take it so literally as to ignore fraud or allow payment in string. The idea being the business should try and meet the customer's needs. Businesses do want to insert middlemen where they can externalise something else. Either to move another cost or process to the customer or to reduce staff. We've seen the near abolition of customer service by ado…

> The idea being the business should try and meet the customer's needs.

But they're choosing their customers with this action. If you can't buy stuff from them, you are not a customer.

> For most of the fifty years since Visa started businesses have been expected to take credit cards, even though they cost more to process for all that time.

Because those were the customers who were spending the money. They didn't have to, they chose to. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that fast food establishments refused to take them. That is a recent change.

What's the benefit of inserting the middlemen?

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#66

Post by ddingus »

msla wrote: post #38
ddingus wrote: post #12

No cash, no sale. Privacy is a big deal to me. Plus downtime. Cash always works. Handling it is sometimes a PITA, but I must say we have a long way to go before electronic systems work well universally. Ordinary people are confused by them, and there are many janky, ultra cheapo type readers out there. For me personally, I leave my mobile unconnected to any payment system. I don't need or want that. I will and do use…

> Cash always works. The falsity of this statement is the entire point of the article. I agree with you otherwise, I think, but this sentence is, now, in this time, unambiguously false.

No it's not.

Cash does not have downtime, and it can be used by anyone.

Now, someone making a business choice to refuse legal tender does not speak to the robustness of said tender, only their choices.

As long as things are good, payment systems running, networks up, that choice can be compelling. When those things are not true, the fall back is what?

Not do business?

Queue transactions and exchange the info needed?

Refer customer elsewhere?

People making cash not work is different from cash not always working.

I agree with you as well, in that "always" needs qualification. Fair enough.

Either way, I will very seriously reconsider most purchases where cash is not an option. It is likely I don't need whatever it is.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#67

Post by gringoDan »

ac29 wrote: post #61
gringoDan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An even more extreme example would be a grocery store, whose overall profit margins are only 1-3%.

Where'd you get that data? I looked up Albertson's and see they have a 43% gross margin and a 23% net margin: https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/financial-highlights/...

Your link is to Asseco, a company on the Poland stock exchange. Albertson's reported a negative net income in its S1 filing [0]

Industry average of net income before taxes and net profit after taxes is 1-3% [1]

Independent grocers report net profit of 0.98% [2]

[0] https://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/company/albertsons-compa...

[1] https://www.fmi.org/our-research/supermarket-facts/grocery-s...

[2] http://www.nationalgrocers.org/docs/default-source/0---defau...

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#68

Post by 18pfsmt »

dionidium wrote: post #49
bena wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, make the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip contacts, curled up in the heat of the clothes drier), know what that balance is, and if I don't have this singleton plastic token that I cannot easily replace or trade, I can't go to certain places? This is a gross exaggeration. > I have to stop, wait, find my wallet Because y…

You're giving good-faith rebuttals to arguments that weren't offered in good faith. Nobody actually has trouble leaving the house with their wallet. That's not a real problem that intellectually average people actually have.

I don't own a wallet. I keep my license and debit card in my vehicle, and my one credit card in my desk at home.

I pay cash for everything but gas, except online purchases. I've been operating this way for most of life.

Treating people as if they're degenerates or below intellectually average for not using plastic (or staying away from Facebook) is uncalled for.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#69

Post by savrajsingh »

I noticed the “credit cards only” sign at Dos Toros for the first time yesterday. One of the things the sign says is cashless allows “more time for coaching” which I hope means training their employees? Coaching seemed like a strange word choice.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#70

Post by ac29 »

gringoDan wrote: post #67
ac29 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where'd you get that data? I looked up Albertson's and see they have a 43% gross margin and a 23% net margin: https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/financial-highlights/...

Your link is to Asseco, a company on the Poland stock exchange. Albertson's reported a negative net income in its S1 filing [0] Industry average of net income before taxes and net profit after taxes is 1-3% [1] Independent grocers report net profit of 0.98% [2] [0] https://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/company/albertsons-compa... [1] https://www.fmi.org/our-research/supermarket-facts/grocery-s... [2] http://www.nationa…

You are right - not sure how that happened, but it is too late to edit/delete my comment.
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