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No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

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Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#41

Post by staplers »

mortenjorck wrote: post #37
orangechairs wrote: post #18

To echo what others have said, cashless systems -- especially in fast food chains -- are a quick way to discriminate against a whole population of the underbanked. I was in Dos Toros (burrito chain mentioned early in the article) about a month ago, and the woman in line ahead of me didn't have a card. She got so embarrassed at the register despite having ample cash to pay for her meal. I paid for her with my card, sh…

What card-only establishments really need is what cash-only bars and diners have had for years: an on-premises method of conversion. It would effectively be a reverse ATM, that you could feed cash and get a prepaid card (minus, of course, an ATM fee). If something like this doesn’t exist, it seems like a good startup opportunity.

You mean a gift card?

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#42

Post by bena »

electroSurveil wrote: post #28
orangechairs wrote: post #18

To echo what others have said, cashless systems -- especially in fast food chains -- are a quick way to discriminate against a whole population of the underbanked. I was in Dos Toros (burrito chain mentioned early in the article) about a month ago, and the woman in line ahead of me didn't have a card. She got so embarrassed at the register despite having ample cash to pay for her meal. I paid for her with my card, sh…

I feel weird spending at places like this at all. Not just because of what it does to other people, but also how it modifies my own behavior. What if it had been me? I can't leave the house with just a twenty in my pocket? That's not good enough? I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, know what that balance is, make sure the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip c…

> I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, make the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip contacts, curled up in the heat of the clothes drier), know what that balance is, and if I don't have this singleton plastic token that I cannot easily replace or trade, I can't go to certain places?

This is a gross exaggeration.

> I have to stop, wait, find my wallet

Because you just cram bills in your pocket. No. You'll have to get your wallet regardless. And your wallet hold more than just your credit cards, it holds your license and any other bits you'll need when out and about. Don't act like the wallet exists solely to facilitate credit cards.

> make sure it has a card with a balance on it

This is entirely a different problem. And one that is on you. This is something I don't think about. If you are juggling that many cards, especially ones where you've reached the limit or don't have funds in the account to cover an expense you plan on, that just sounds like poor money management. Your option in a cash-based society would be simple starvation.

> make the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip contacts, curled up in the heat of the clothes drier)

Are you that careless? Also, cash can be damaged by washing machines and such as well. I've never really had to worry about whether or not my card is damaged.

> know what that balance is

Probably the only salient point in that entire block of nonsense. You'd need to kind of remember your balance if you use it daily. But then again, when I was poor, that number was always in my head. And it's not like it would be much different than a checkbook if you wanted to keep track.

> and if I don't have this singleton plastic token that I cannot easily replace or trade, I can't go to certain places?

And? There are all sorts of tokens that restrict your ability to go places that you aren't complaining about.

> food service normally loves cash, because they can report it differently. Tips are quasi-off-the-books

Aka, fraud.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#43

Post by United857 »

This article burys the lede -- from the last paragraph:

Take the overdraft fee, a punishment for desperate or careless customers that netted banks $15 billion in 2016. As many as half of overdraft fees aren’t assessed at an ATM, where customers can see their balance, but at the point of sale—debit card transactions at the counters of shops and restaurants. And the majority of overdraft fees, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau reported in 2014, came on transactions of $24 or under. Not people stretching to make a big purchase, in other words. Just trying to get lunch.

Those fees are a big source of revenue for the banks. Nothing about convenience for the customer.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#44

Post by [deleted] »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #40
dionidium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should you have to? This is going to sound glib, but I assure you that it's offered genuinely: you don't have to do anything.

Until such point as all businesses have achieved cashless and there is no choice in the matter left, for anyone. That's the stated endpoint of this game. Why do you think Visa are offering $10k prizes for businesses that can go fully cashless? It's not for the customers. I would make a point of not supporting such a business but if I'm in a minority and cashless catches on...

[deleted]

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#45

Post by bena »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #32
hartator wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you buy a prepaid debit card at a Walmart? I think it's probably fine to let the business decide whatever means of payment they want to accept.

Why should you have to? Once upon a time the customer was always right. A business was supposed to serve the customer's needs and did what was necessary to achieve that. Now the business can insert multiple middlemen with commissions and transaction fees and the damn customers can just fall into line. Sharpish please, and no complaints or we'll close your account. Do we not see a problem travelling down this road? Or…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right

Like the bit says, even when the phrase was becoming popularized, people saw the inherent flaw in it.

The customer is right, within reason.

You are complaining about a cashless business, one that won't accept the minted currency of the nation.

Which could be a fair complaint.

But if we are to hold to the maxim that the customer is always right, then if I insist on paying in bits of string, then I'm right. If I insist that the value of what I'm taking is far less than you think, then I'm right. At some point, you have to admit that there is a line.

And businesses don't want to insert middlemen, they're dealing with them just like we are. But they're getting to the point where the cost of dealing with those middlemen are less than or equal to dealing with hard cash.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#46

Post by bena »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #40
dionidium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should you have to? This is going to sound glib, but I assure you that it's offered genuinely: you don't have to do anything.

Until such point as all businesses have achieved cashless and there is no choice in the matter left, for anyone. That's the stated endpoint of this game. Why do you think Visa are offering $10k prizes for businesses that can go fully cashless? It's not for the customers. I would make a point of not supporting such a business but if I'm in a minority and cashless catches on...

Visa has a vested interest in that though.

The thing we're dealing with here isn't Visa, it's the businesses themselves. They've reached a point where dealing with Visa is cheaper than dealing with cash.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#47

Post by rimliu »

electroSurveil wrote: post #28
orangechairs wrote: post #18

To echo what others have said, cashless systems -- especially in fast food chains -- are a quick way to discriminate against a whole population of the underbanked. I was in Dos Toros (burrito chain mentioned early in the article) about a month ago, and the woman in line ahead of me didn't have a card. She got so embarrassed at the register despite having ample cash to pay for her meal. I paid for her with my card, sh…

I feel weird spending at places like this at all. Not just because of what it does to other people, but also how it modifies my own behavior. What if it had been me? I can't leave the house with just a twenty in my pocket? That's not good enough? I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, know what that balance is, make sure the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip c…

In Denmark and Sweden it is simple: you are likely to have your phone with you, and thats enough. MobilePay and Swish respectively are wildly popular solutions.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#48

Post by wvenable »

tonyarkles wrote: post #21
dugditches wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

90210 Canadians can use the first 3 of their postal code.

Except our postal codes are A#A #A#. I've definitely had trouble buying gas at American pumps before, and the staff couldn't figure out a solution.

From your postal code "A#A#A#", it becomes "###00" at the pump. Near the border, most pumps will have this as a sign on them. But I was recently in Florida and that worked fine for paying at the pump.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#49

Post by dionidium »

bena wrote: post #42
electroSurveil wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel weird spending at places like this at all. Not just because of what it does to other people, but also how it modifies my own behavior. What if it had been me? I can't leave the house with just a twenty in my pocket? That's not good enough? I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, know what that balance is, make sure the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip c…

> I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, make the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip contacts, curled up in the heat of the clothes drier), know what that balance is, and if I don't have this singleton plastic token that I cannot easily replace or trade, I can't go to certain places? This is a gross exaggeration. > I have to stop, wait, find my wallet Because y…

You're giving good-faith rebuttals to arguments that weren't offered in good faith. Nobody actually has trouble leaving the house with their wallet. That's not a real problem that intellectually average people actually have.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#50

Post by mortenjorck »

cannonedhamster wrote: post #27

Here's a weird question. Why hasn't the U.S. Government made an electronic cash platform with zero transaction fees yet? This should be something that falls under the treasury, it would help cut down on fraud and provide a backbone for small businesses and large businesses alike. Being able to pay debts is basic infrastructure for an economy and transaction fees are a giant tax on small businesses and large businesse…

This is a great idea and is long overdue.

However, lobbyists from Visa and MasterCard would saddle the program with all sorts of concessions to incumbent payment processors that would make the program cumbersome to use, stifle adoption, and ultimately reinforce their dominant positions.

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