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Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

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Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#101

I'm a Toronto native and have been working as a dev for the past two years. COL is extremely high compared to salaries. This is likely the biggest problem for anyone looking to move here. For example, a small 1 bedroom condo downtown will run you at least CA$2k a month. For a larger 1 bedroom or 1+den your easily looking at $2-3k in today's demanding market. Public transit is usually a hit or miss during rush hour. I…

I can definitely second Kitchener/Waterloo. Absolutely fantastic place to live!

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#102
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could easily take a GO train from Port Credit to downtown. Very easily. We did it from Clarkson (the next stop West).

So you pay at the least around $300 a month to commute via GO train and then you need a car which is at the least another $500 when you factor in gas + insurance + lease. That's another $800 to your monthly expense and add commuting time to that.

At least with commuter rail you get a few extra productive hours per day, unlike driving. My uncle commutes from Guelph to Toronto on GO most days and makes full use of the silent railcar for work.

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#103

As a developer who has been working and applying for jobs in the Toronto area for the past 3 years I find the tech ecosystem highly dysfunctional and I'm glad I finally moved out.

> I find the tech ecosystem highly dysfunctional

Could you elaborate? curious what you mean.

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#104

There are over 350,000 Canadians living and working in Silicon Valley. Canada's total population is only ~35 million. There is good reason for this mass exodus. The rates for tech workers in Toronto are terrible. An enterprising worker can easily triple their income by working for American companies. The fact that this report is sourced from a real estate firm should give you a hint to the rent-seeking nature of the…

Could you link your source for the 350k figure? Thank you!

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-magaz...

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#105

There are over 350,000 Canadians living and working in Silicon Valley. Canada's total population is only ~35 million. There is good reason for this mass exodus. The rates for tech workers in Toronto are terrible. An enterprising worker can easily triple their income by working for American companies. The fact that this report is sourced from a real estate firm should give you a hint to the rent-seeking nature of the…

Could you link your source for the 350k figure? Thank you!

[deleted]

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you link your source for the 350k figure? Thank you!

Toronto is 75k CAD (57k USD) ( https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/toronto-software-engineer... ) San Francisco is 124k USD ( https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en... ) So, it's not triple, but it's more than double. Also, if you're going from a junior/midlevel role in CA to a senior position in the US, you could pretty easily triple your salary.

I think you replied to the wrong parent

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#109
post #7

This is a garbage article. At least link to the original press release from CBRE: https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-thirty-2016 .

That press release is 2016, and puts San Francisco at the top of the list. The HuffPo article makes its claim using 2012 - 2017 stats, so presumably it's a newer report. Here are the CBRE report summaries for 2017 and 2018:

https://www.cbre.com/research-and-reports/Tech-30-2017

https://www.cbre.us/about/media-center/tech-talent-2018

https://www.cbre.us/research-and-reports/Scoring-Tech-Talent...

I still appreciate the link, though, because HuffPo didn't source their numbers, which look very strange. CBRE's 2017 data says San Francisco has had the highest percentage growth in tech jobs for 6 years running, and it's ~20 points higher than Toronto in each timeframe listed. The 2018 report does list Toronto growing at 51.5%, and the San Francisco Bay Area growing at 31%.

But we need to know what region is being assessed - the 2016 report separates San Francisco and Silicon Valley, so this is a crucial difference. San Francisco proper is 800,000 people, Silicon Valley is ~3,000,000, Toronto ~3,000,000 and the Bay Area is 8,000,000. The CBRE data does break out Silicon Valley separately, at least in pre-2018 reports. The headline here says "Silicon Valley", but the body gives numbers for the "San Francisco Bay Area".

Working backwards from the publicly-available CBRE report stats, I get 90,000 new tech jobs in Toronto from 2013-2017. That's noticeably higher than HuffPo's 82,000 from 2012-2017, but plausible given that I'm using CBRE's heavily-rounded numbers.

San Francisco apparently had 79,100 tech jobs at the start of 2017, up from 56,800 at the start of 2015. We can back-calculate to 38,600 tech workers in 2013. Calculations from Census Bureau estimates from that time period put the number somewhere very similar in 2013, suggesting that this is correct. CBRE tells us San Francisco also had the highest percentage growth surveyed in 2012, so we can project 2012 growth from the next years. Percentage growth has been slowing, so I used the 2013-2015 rate to get 7,300 new jobs in 2012. Those numbers are for San Francisco itself, population 800,000. If we nevertheless apply the 2017 "San Francisco Bay Area" percentage growth to this number, we get 2013-3017 growth of 65,600, for a 2012-2017 total change of 72,900.

> Toronto... beat out the San Francisco Bay Area for the spot by about 4,270 jobs.

82,000-72,900 = 9,100

This is 2x HuffPo's number, but I'm really working the data to make these rounded percentages workout. Fortunately, all of the other differences we're worried about dwarf this. It's not Silicon Valley, that's distinct, and it can't be the whole Bay Area, because that would imply the non-SF Bay Area of 7,200,000 people gained a total of 4,000 tech jobs in five years.

It looks like HuffPo used CBRE's San Francisco proper numbers, cited raw counts despite a ~4x population difference, and then reported it as the "San Francisco Bay Area" based on CBRE's 2018 language. That, or they failed to notice that CBRE (and other firms like PwC) have changed their region breakdown this year, and simply conflated Bay Area numbers from one year with San Francisco numbers from other years.

It looks like somebody tried for a dramatic-but-misleading story with a useless comparison, confused their subject between headline and body, and ultimately made a numerical statement that's simply false. Failing to link their source was probably a good move given all that.

(And I'll bet this article took half as long to write and publish as it took commenters to debunk. The Gish Gallop even works for professional news organizations.)

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#110
post #53

Something doesn't seem right about these stats. From the article: The report by CBRE Group says Toronto added 82,100 technology-related jobs between 2012 and 2017 to beat out the San Francisco Bay Area for the spot by about 4,270 jobs. 82,000 jobs over 5 years, ok. Let's look at some other accounts of Bay Area tech jobs, for example https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/10/tech-job-growth-slow... : Tech’s annual job g…

These stats are bad, but it's much worse than just sloppy data gathering in the survey. See the discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17610221

You can get numbers much like HuffPo's if you compare urban San Francisco (population 800,000) to Toronto (population 3,000,000). Which is grossly misleading to begin with, but they then listed it as "Silicon Valley" in the headline and the "San Francisco Bay Area" in the body. Which are, obviously, three fundamentally different regions.

The CBRE data probably isn't perfect, but projecting their San Francisco percentage change back to 2013 does match Census Bureau numbers surprisingly well. Things get a bit confusing in 2018 because it looks like CBRE changed their grouping from SV and SF separately to the whole Bay combined.

Unfortunately, HuffPo didn't know or care about that distinction, so we got this article instead.

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