Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past • Hacker News Board

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#11

Post by drb91 » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

bvc35 wrote: post #7

ff_ wrote: post #4

The really funny thing about doing any construction work in basically any Italian city is that you already know from the start that there is going to be several years of delay due to finding ancient stuff... But it's impossible to dig all of that out (reasons: too big, too disruptive, no funds, happens everywhere, etc). So what usually happens is: take pictures, save some artifact, cover with concrete and go on with…

What a damn shame.

What's the alternative--people stop developing Istanbul, Rome, etc entirely? I can't say I'm entirely unsympathetic to a population that wants development over marginally better understanding of places that already experience high levels of excavation and historical tourism.

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#12

Post by personlurking » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #2

Interesting. I really like that they're displaying the things they found in the stations rather than just carting them away to the basement of some museum.

In Amsterdam as well

https://www.lonelyplanet.com/news/2018/07/17/amsterdam-museu...

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#13

Post by freehunter » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

drb91 wrote: post #11

bvc35 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a damn shame.

What's the alternative--people stop developing Istanbul, Rome, etc entirely? I can't say I'm entirely unsympathetic to a population that wants development over marginally better understanding of places that already experience high levels of excavation and historical tourism.

I agree. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's valuable. Archaeologists come in and determine if the area has any historical value or advances our understanding of the ancient past. If it does, construction stops while the finds are uncovered. If not, then continue on.

Finding yet another clay pot in Rome, one of the largest centers of population with one of the longest and most complete historical records of anywhere in the ancient world, is probably not going to be of much historical value.

In an age where you can buy 10 Roman coins on Amazon for $25 and have them delivered to your house in two days with Prime shipping, the value of common ancient Roman artifacts is made abundantly clear.

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#14

Post by pmontra » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #13

drb91 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the alternative--people stop developing Istanbul, Rome, etc entirely? I can't say I'm entirely unsympathetic to a population that wants development over marginally better understanding of places that already experience high levels of excavation and historical tourism.

I agree. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's valuable. Archaeologists come in and determine if the area has any historical value or advances our understanding of the ancient past. If it does, construction stops while the finds are uncovered. If not, then continue on. Finding yet another clay pot in Rome, one of the largest centers of population with one of the longest and most complete historical records of anywh…

It's valuable (think about revenues from tourism) but we still have to live our lives. The ancients built on top of anything was there before. That's why we have so many archeological layers in Rome.

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#15

Post by sbov » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 6:21 PM UTC

pmontra wrote: post #14

freehunter wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's valuable. Archaeologists come in and determine if the area has any historical value or advances our understanding of the ancient past. If it does, construction stops while the finds are uncovered. If not, then continue on. Finding yet another clay pot in Rome, one of the largest centers of population with one of the longest and most complete historical records of anywh…

It's valuable (think about revenues from tourism) but we still have to live our lives. The ancients built on top of anything was there before. That's why we have so many archeological layers in Rome.

It's not valuable if all they find is standard roman clay pot # 123,312 to 124,312.

There was an article about this when they were building the tunnel in Istanbul. They did find some significant stuff, but the vast majority of it was stuff they already had tons of. They literally filled warehouses with the stuff, and dumped most of it back in because it was not rare or significant.

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#16

Post by carlob » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

azujus wrote: post #10

It’s weird how our great^5 grandchildren will only find treasures in our dumps, but the cities will still be full of ancient stuff.

It's also that the Romans thought they were going to be around forever so they built everything to last.

If you look at the Colosseum, it looks the way it is because it was willfully destroyed and used for construction material over centuries: when Rome became the seat of the Papacy, the Colosseum was remembered as a place where the early martyrs were slaughtered by wild beasts, not as a nice building to be preserved for tourists.

On the other hand many Roman bridges throughout Europe still stand and some are still in use (yes even by cars). But the really amazing case is the Pantheon, that was turned into a church early on and preserved and restored for almost 2000 years. It's true that not all we see is original, but the structural engineering is.

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#17

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

Someone wrote: post #6

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #2

Interesting. I really like that they're displaying the things they found in the stations rather than just carting them away to the basement of some museum.

The threshold for “museum worthy” is fairly high in ancient cities such as Rome. Chances are builders tried to avoid finding artifacts as much as possible. They certainly did in Istanbul when extending the subway: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/08/31/the-big-dig

[deleted]

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#18

Post by carlob » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 6:26 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #9

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #2

Interesting. I really like that they're displaying the things they found in the stations rather than just carting them away to the basement of some museum.

Museums in Rome would throw them out, their basements are already full. I know it's controversial, but I personally think that there should be the possibility for the State to sell (or "permanently loan" for money) significant amounts of minor artifacts to other nation-states. Countries like the US, Britain or Australia would build academic cathedrals around the crappiest 1% of the stuff we have to stockpile in Italy…

In many cases that is possible when the dig was financed by another institution. The 4000 yo Egyptian "dioramas" they have on display at the met have been split between NYC and Cairo, because it was an American-led archaeological survey that found them.

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#19

Post by wtvanhest » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

carlob wrote: post #16

azujus wrote: post #10

It’s weird how our great^5 grandchildren will only find treasures in our dumps, but the cities will still be full of ancient stuff.

It's also that the Romans thought they were going to be around forever so they built everything to last. If you look at the Colosseum, it looks the way it is because it was willfully destroyed and used for construction material over centuries: when Rome became the seat of the Papacy, the Colosseum was remembered as a place where the early martyrs were slaughtered by wild beasts, not as a nice building to be preserved…

The Pantheon is one of the most impressive buildings I have ever seen. The light coming through the top is just incredible.

Re: Rome's Subway Expansion Reveals Artifacts From The Ancient Past

#20

Post by erentz » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

bvc35 wrote: post #7

ff_ wrote: post #4

The really funny thing about doing any construction work in basically any Italian city is that you already know from the start that there is going to be several years of delay due to finding ancient stuff... But it's impossible to dig all of that out (reasons: too big, too disruptive, no funds, happens everywhere, etc). So what usually happens is: take pictures, save some artifact, cover with concrete and go on with…

What a damn shame.

OTOH digging for construction does give the opportunity to at least find and discover these buried things. Without that they’d never be uncovered. Nobody would ever know they were down there. So it’s always seemed a win-win to me when managed right.