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That sinking feeling

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Re: That sinking feeling

#141

Post by asplake »

Symmetry wrote: post #53
bilbo0s wrote: post #24

Just an outsider's opinion, but I think that they had a vote. They probably should not have voted "Leave", but they did. So now you have to get on with the business of implementing the will of the people. It might come out just as the author has outlined, or it might not be that bad, or it might be far worse than even the author has envisioned. The thing is, whatever the consequences and benefits are, they are conseq…

Two things. First, the UK is a representative democracy ruled by Parliament and if Parliament decides they don't want to do something they don't have to and the way for the people to indicate their displeasure is to elect new people to Parliament. Second, the will of the people is a nebulous thing. Brexit won with slightly more than half the vote but that was in 2016. Since then many Brexit voters have died, many new…

Unfortunately, representative democracy decided that it wasn’t strong enough to deal with the issue itself and decided to hold a referendum. Right or wrong, it finds itself weakened, compounded by the most ill-judged election call in a long time.

Re: That sinking feeling

#142

Post by gnode »

arethuza wrote: post #44
ComradeTaco wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a non-zero chance that May is replaced by a hard brexiter and they insist, by will of the referendum, that a hard brexit must occur. You can see UKIP bubbling back up in frustration. When you consider what a soft brexit is, it's genuinely nothing of what leave wanted. The UK still doesn't have a solid border between itself and the EU because of the Good Friday Agreement, the UK still had to pay the EU and fo…

And the most likely candidate is Jacob Rees-Mogg "Honourable Member for the 19th Century": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Rees-Mogg

18th Century according to the article linked -- which I'd say is more accurate.

Re: That sinking feeling

#143

Post by arethuza »

gnode wrote: post #142
arethuza wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the most likely candidate is Jacob Rees-Mogg "Honourable Member for the 19th Century": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Rees-Mogg

18th Century according to the article linked -- which I'd say is more accurate.

Probably made that mistake because I went to a state school!

Re: That sinking feeling

#144

Post by justinclift »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #61
kzrdude wrote: post #57

Just because of a customs border, one doesn't have to have road blocks and controls. Seems to be an assumption, but I don't agree, one can keep an opening border anyway, even if you have customs.

You need to have _something_ because otherwise you have a gateway for smuggling.

> You need to have _something_ because otherwise you have a gateway for smuggling.

How would you describe the current situation then? :)

Re: That sinking feeling

#145

Post by coldtea »

EliRivers wrote: post #52
coldtea wrote: post #21

> The Electoral Commission has uncovered evidence of electoral spending irregularities in the Leave.UK and Vote Leave campaigns serious enough to justify criminal investigation and possible prosecution Somehow those kinds of probes only conveniently find "irregularities" from the sides that the political elites are against... UK is supposedly a democracy (and thus such matters are to be decided by popular vote), but…

UK is supposedly a democracy (and thus such matters are to be decided by popular vote) I disagree; that's not true at all. The UK generally does not have such matters decided by popular vote. An actual referendum is a very unusual thing in the UK.

Well, there was the Scottish independence referendum.

(Had it gone for independence, we'd still be hearing how the Scots where deluded, how the independent Scotland side had "electoral spending irregularities" and such, how they are racist and backwards, etc. Now that we hear about it again in the face of Brexit -- where Scottish independence would be interpreted as "Scotland in the EU" -- the same people would say the opposite).

But I was speaking of the people voting in general, not a referendum. UK still has elections IIRC.

Re: That sinking feeling

#146

Post by coldtea »

pjc50 wrote: post #58
coldtea wrote: post #21

> The Electoral Commission has uncovered evidence of electoral spending irregularities in the Leave.UK and Vote Leave campaigns serious enough to justify criminal investigation and possible prosecution Somehow those kinds of probes only conveniently find "irregularities" from the sides that the political elites are against... UK is supposedly a democracy (and thus such matters are to be decided by popular vote), but…

There's definitely a valid point in that a lot of people feel alienated and badly served by the EU. But in order to get out of "TINA" someone has to present a viable alternative . This is the other lesson of Greece. Arguably they had far more reason to "Grexit". But they didn't, because ultimately it was plain that being outside the EU not only wouldn't solve their problems but cut them off from participating in thei…

>This is the other lesson of Greece. Arguably they had far more reason to "Grexit". But they didn't, because ultimately it was plain that being outside the EU not only wouldn't solve their problems but cut them off from participating in their solution.

Actually the government didn't, breaking its promises, and working against the will of the Greek people (who voted 62% against the EU deals in their referendum that was widely understood as a anti-EU vote).

>solve their problems but cut them off from participating in their solution.

The majority of said problems are if not created, then perpetuated by the EU-backed solutions.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/hesitation-and-pa...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33845836

https://www.ft.com/content/9b3d38a2-7574-11e8-aa31-31da4279a...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/06/germany-195...

https://global.handelsblatt.com/finance/germany-profits-from...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-faces-bi...

Re: That sinking feeling

#147

Post by detaro »

justinclift wrote: post #144
AndrewDucker wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to have _something_ because otherwise you have a gateway for smuggling.

> You need to have _something_ because otherwise you have a gateway for smuggling. How would you describe the current situation then? :)

In the current situation, there's no customs border, so what exactly would you want to avoid by "smuggling", and how would your "smuggling" differ from "I legally transport goods from here to there"?

Re: That sinking feeling

#148

Post by justinclift »

detaro wrote: post #147
justinclift wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need to have _something_ because otherwise you have a gateway for smuggling. How would you describe the current situation then? :)

In the current situation, there's no customs border, so what exactly would you want to avoid by "smuggling", and how would your "smuggling" differ from "I legally transport goods from here to there"?

Yes, that was my point. :)

Re: That sinking feeling

#149

Post by detaro »

justinclift wrote: post #148
detaro wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the current situation, there's no customs border, so what exactly would you want to avoid by "smuggling", and how would your "smuggling" differ from "I legally transport goods from here to there"?

Yes, that was my point. :)

I don't get what your point is then, sorry. That the UK should stay in the customs union?

Re: That sinking feeling

#150

Post by xamuel »

My sinking feeling comes from seeing democracy dying, replaced by "right answers" declared from on high.

Suppose the UK held a referendum about whether RSA encryption should be legal. The voters narrowly vote to keep it legal. Suddenly the press, the universities, celebrities and think-tanks start proclaiming the voters were mis-informed. That foreign powers deceived voters to keep RSA encryption legal. That the vote should be re-held because voters have changed their minds. Suddenly, you can't post a tweet in favor of RSA encryption without a brigade shaming you and demanding you be fired. Can't you see how wrong this is?

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