Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

That sinking feeling

antipope.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 178 posts

Re: That sinking feeling

#91

Post by pjc50 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #84
pjc50 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> implementing the will of the people > best of your ability. Leaving aside the plain lack of ability from those running the show, as written this is a mandate for the "Norway option" - EEA and free movement, ECJ etc, but not actually in the EU. This is basically as close to the status quo as possible except we'd give up our ability to vote on EU rules and just have to accept them. However, when this is suggested, a…

> Leaving aside the plain lack of ability from those running the show, as written this is a mandate for the "Norway option" - EEA and free movement, ECJ etc, but not actually in the EU I'm pretty sure opposition to free movement was a key underpinning of Brexit support, so I don't think the Brexit vote can be seen as a mandate for the “Norway option”. Also, not sure that that's an option that would actually be in the…

> I'm pretty sure opposition to free movement was a key underpinning of Brexit support

Probably, but was it on the ballot paper? No. Was it in the manifesto? (which manifesto of the multiple Leave campaigns, or the Conservative 2017 one?) This is why we're in a mess, for every option people appear saying that it's not what they voted for.

Re: That sinking feeling

#92

Post by jlavine »

Symmetry wrote: post #53
bilbo0s wrote: post #24

Just an outsider's opinion, but I think that they had a vote. They probably should not have voted "Leave", but they did. So now you have to get on with the business of implementing the will of the people. It might come out just as the author has outlined, or it might not be that bad, or it might be far worse than even the author has envisioned. The thing is, whatever the consequences and benefits are, they are conseq…

Two things. First, the UK is a representative democracy ruled by Parliament and if Parliament decides they don't want to do something they don't have to and the way for the people to indicate their displeasure is to elect new people to Parliament. Second, the will of the people is a nebulous thing. Brexit won with slightly more than half the vote but that was in 2016. Since then many Brexit voters have died, many new…

The promises of Parliament and the will of the people regarding Brexit were about as clear as it gets in any democracy. Parliament voted to have the referendum. The referendum was simply and clearly expressed (though not at all detailed), each side had months to state their case, and the results were uncontroversial. Parliament followed the referendum with a vote to trigger Article 50. Subsequent elections resulted in a pro-Brexit government. What more could you possibly want in a democracy? To reverse course now - or to just keep having a referendum or revotes until the "right" result is achieved - would express total contempt and disregard for democracy itself. Such total disregard for the will of the people occurred following referenda on the EU Constitution in France and Ireland. The EU's anti-democratic actions were one of the main arguments of the Brexiteers.

Re: That sinking feeling

#93

Post by ThomPete »

andruby wrote: post #49
ThomPete wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to prove that. It hasent been.

Proving in court will be hard. But surely you've seen the smoke?

Then there is really no case. Even smoke need a place of origin if you can't even point to that and show how it was done not just by circumstantial evidence but actually shoving the data to support it then it's just guessing, in this case highly biased guessing.

Brexit is no different than what is seen in many other places throughout Europe, a fight against globalization so unless Russia has developed some magical abilities to mind control large parts of Europe and the US which no other nation in this world is able to copy then I would say that the smoke you see is our own.

Re: That sinking feeling

#94

Post by ethbro »

arethuza wrote: post #22
Symmetry wrote: post #14

This is from an outsider to UK politics but it seems weird to me that we didn't see the Lib Dems or some other smallish party position themselves as the party of "We won't Brexit" and pick up a lot of the Remain votes?

Both the Lib Dems and the SNP are pretty clear about not wanting Brexit (possibly some other parties as well) - but this means nothing in the context of UK politics. Given that the current Labour leadership are quietly pro-Brexit and that there is unlikely to be an election anytime soon I don't think there is any chance of an electoral solution to this problem. https://www.libdems.org.uk/exit-brexit https://www.snp.o…

Hypothetically, what's to stop one of the opposition parties from allying with the Conservatives over a watered-down Brexit? (And ignoring DUP)

Or once a governing coalition is formed is it "locked in" until new elections?

Re: That sinking feeling

#95

Post by trocadero »

pjc50 wrote: post #46
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically the UK is shaping up for no deal. Highly appealing to Rees Mogg and his tax haven based hedge fund, not so good for everyone else. No deal will mean life goes on with tariffs on many goods in either direction. As we have seen over the last two years the Foreign Office has seemingly lost everyone who has diplomatic ability. Funny, they used to be famously good at it. This is not promising for the chances…

It's not so much the tariffs as the customs clearance per se. Everyone seems to have forgotten that transporting goods across a border has VAT implications, and if you don't check and aren't part of the same VAT area there's a huge opportunity for "carousel fraud". And the UK is absolutely not set up to cope with customs checks on every vehicle crossing the Channel. See "operation stack". Oh, and all our internationa…

>It's not so much the tariffs as the customs clearance per se. Everyone seems to have forgotten that transporting goods across a border has VAT implications, and if you don't check and aren't part of the same VAT area there's a huge opportunity for "carousel fraud".

That would give the EU reason to block imports from the UK. It doesn't give much of a reason for the UK to block imports from the EU. So there's no reason to expect that the UK will starve or Amazon will shut down. The only way for that to happen is for the UK to shoot themselves in the foot (again).

Exports, of course, are a whole different story and that's where the risk lies. General economic damage from increased friction in exporting to the EU.

Re: That sinking feeling

#96

Post by BerislavLopac »

lozenge wrote: post #4

Entertaining, but realistically the UK will just get a "bad deal". Life will go on, political parties are blamed, then we get to repeat it all again because the next party to be elected does it on a platform of "renegotiating".

Any kind of deal is practically impossible. Anything that might be acceptable to the current government is not acceptable to the EU, and vice versa. So the only remaining options are:

a) Nothing changes, and in March 2019 the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal ("hard brexit").

b) Article 50 somehow gets revoked, and the UK remains in the EU, with a lot of distrust in the years to come.

Personally, I'm hoping for the latter but expecting the former.

Re: That sinking feeling

#97

Post by lmm »

pjc50 wrote: post #81
craigsmansion wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I think that they had a vote. Norway also had a vote on the EU. I was also close. "No" won. What Norway didn't implement was a "winner takes all" approach. They're not in the EU. They're not in the Customs union. They are in the EEA. Everybody wins, everybody loses, but nobody feels like their wishes have been completely ignored. There is no reason the results of the Brexit referendum couldn't have been interpr…

I think for a lot of participants there does have to be a "loser" - it's been turned into a "culture war". That's where things like refusing to accept ECJ jurisdiction seem to be coming from. That's why there's such a nasty edge to the whole thing, and such a refusal to engage in compromises that might move the thing forwards.

I don't think it's a case of "having to be a loser". Rather the nasty edge is coming from a loss of confidence that the (upper-middle-class, college-educated) political class will represent the people - and not without reason, given how our political and social elites (still!) dismiss any concern about immigration as nothing but stupid racists, as seen in this very article.

Re: That sinking feeling

#98

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

jlavine wrote: post #92
Symmetry wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things. First, the UK is a representative democracy ruled by Parliament and if Parliament decides they don't want to do something they don't have to and the way for the people to indicate their displeasure is to elect new people to Parliament. Second, the will of the people is a nebulous thing. Brexit won with slightly more than half the vote but that was in 2016. Since then many Brexit voters have died, many new…

The promises of Parliament and the will of the people regarding Brexit were about as clear as it gets in any democracy. Parliament voted to have the referendum. The referendum was simply and clearly expressed (though not at all detailed), each side had months to state their case, and the results were uncontroversial. Parliament followed the referendum with a vote to trigger Article 50. Subsequent elections resulted i…

>> To reverse course now - or to just keep having a referendum or revotes until the "right" result is achieved - would express total contempt and disregard for democracy itself.

Ah, yes. There is no democratic way to overturn a democratically taken decision. And it is the peple who are sovereign, not Parliament. That's how the story goes.

Many UK citizens who voted Remain have a poor understanding of the procedures of their own democracy. This is the fault of the political class of course, who have long wished to keep their voters misinformed and apathetic, the better to control them. Inevitably, this is now coming back to bite them. Along with everyone else.

For the record: in the UK, Parliament is sovereign (i.e. they can do whatever they decide) and democratically taken decisions are routinely overturned, e.g. when a new government is elected every 5 ish years.

Re: That sinking feeling

#99

Post by mnm1 »

api wrote: post #15

I've spoken to people who are cheering for these kinds of effects. An actual quote: "I hope Trump does as much damage as possible." The Trump and Brexit elections were for some people a kind of Luddite revolt -- not against technology per se but against globalization. This was a revolt by the working classes of the developed world against a globalization process that is substantially impoverishing them. I can't say I…

If America was great before 1973, it certainly was only great for white men. Ask a black person just how great America was before 1973. Or a woman. Mexicans. Chinese. Native Americans. MAGA is a racist slogan that only appeals to racist whites and idiots who don't know American history.

Re: That sinking feeling

#100

Post by lmm »

ardillaroja wrote: post #54
bilbo0s wrote: post #24

Just an outsider's opinion, but I think that they had a vote. They probably should not have voted "Leave", but they did. So now you have to get on with the business of implementing the will of the people. It might come out just as the author has outlined, or it might not be that bad, or it might be far worse than even the author has envisioned. The thing is, whatever the consequences and benefits are, they are conseq…

But let's say the 48% that voted to remain in the EU had grown to say 55% that didn't like the sound of the Brexit deal being hashed out and would prefer the status quo. Would it be reasonable for our politicians to try and use the levers of government to reverse course to represent the new will of the people? At the end of the day I don't think the public were qualified to answer the question as it was posed. There…

> But let's say the 48% that voted to remain in the EU had grown to say 55% that didn't like the sound of the Brexit deal being hashed out and would prefer the status quo. Would it be reasonable for our politicians to try and use the levers of government to reverse course to represent the new will of the people?

You can't keep asking the people until they give the answer you want and then seize on that. Holding another referendum after say 10 years have passed seems reasonable.

> At the end of the day I don't think the public were qualified to answer the question as it was posed. There were too many unknowns and too much false information. We elect people to represent us because we believe they are qualified to do so.

I agree. But, Cameron having chosen to hold the referendum, his party is duty-bound to implement its results.

Post reply on HN