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Man jailed over computer password refusal

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#31

Post by Anechoic »

moxiemk1 wrote: post #22
xenophanes wrote: post #13

I realize this story is in the UK, but could it happen in the US or would the 5th amendment protect you? As an American, it seems a bit insane to me for someone to be jailed for refusing to help convict himself.

I thought remembered a court precedent in the US that ruled being compelled to divulge encryption keys was equivalent to being compelled to hand over keys to locked places (like a safe), which is historically required. That said, I can't find such an article, so hopefully I'm making it up and we are indeed safe in our minds.

There's United States v. Boucher but case had a couple of wrinkles, including the fact that Boucher had previously cooperated with law enforcement so it was thought that providing a password wasn't self-imcrimination since it wouldn't add to the knowledge of what the authorities already had: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Boucher

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#32

Post by NathanKP »

It seems like a bad idea to store anything incriminating on your local hard drive. Why not keep your encrypted files on a flash drive? If the police show up destroy the flash drive using a hammer, ensuring that the flash memory chip is thoroughly pulverized and completely unreadable.

Likewise, if you are going to be using the internet for devious purposes drive around and use a neighbor's open wireless network access point, which highly reduces the chances that anything can be traced back to you. Or set up your own unsecured wireless network point and suggest to officers that illegal use came from an outside source.

Not that I want to condone illegal activities, or condone lying to police officers, but to the hacker in me these seem like simple, sensible steps to take that will be more dependable than even a 50 character password.

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#33

Post by pilom »

moxiemk1 wrote: post #22
xenophanes wrote: post #13

I realize this story is in the UK, but could it happen in the US or would the 5th amendment protect you? As an American, it seems a bit insane to me for someone to be jailed for refusing to help convict himself.

I thought remembered a court precedent in the US that ruled being compelled to divulge encryption keys was equivalent to being compelled to hand over keys to locked places (like a safe), which is historically required. That said, I can't find such an article, so hopefully I'm making it up and we are indeed safe in our minds.

No legally in the US you are not required to give the keys to the safe, but they can drop your sentence significantly for working with the investigators. For a safe, if you don't give them the key, the get a grinder and hack saw, for an encrypted hard drive in the US they give it to the NSA (though 50 chars would be tough for even them i'd expect).

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#34

Post by brettmjohnson »

rdtsc wrote: post #29
ck2 wrote: post #17

In the USA can you be compelled to testify against yourself by being coerced into giving a password to law enforcement? Has this been tested yet, out of curiosity? I remember reading they can deny you entry/exit to the USA if customs can't read your laptop but never heard anything like local/FBI. If not, I hope it doesn't go before this particular supreme court.

They can slap an "obstruction of justice" charge on. Or charge you with "contempt of court" and just jail you based on that. In broader terms yes the system has a way to inflict random punishment on you for disobidience. In other countries they will just start breaking your fingers, your loved ones fingers, and so on. So the password problem is solved a lot "easier" then.

Once they start breaking your fingers, it gets a whole lot harder to enter that 50-character password.

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#35

Post by ck2 »

camiller wrote: post #25
ck2 wrote: post #17

In the USA can you be compelled to testify against yourself by being coerced into giving a password to law enforcement? Has this been tested yet, out of curiosity? I remember reading they can deny you entry/exit to the USA if customs can't read your laptop but never heard anything like local/FBI. If not, I hope it doesn't go before this particular supreme court.

Apparently not, although I though I had read of an earlier case where there was a judge that ruled that a password had to be revealed. http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2008-02-07-encr...

Yeah that's the border - slightly different, though they also set up border checks hundreds of miles "inland" around the country which makes their intentions suspect.

What I hate about all these cases is it comes down to child porn which makes it impossible to defend. Why can't it be something mundane that actually shows why this is a REALLY bad idea.

I just saw a scary university lecture on youtube on why you should NEVER talk to to the police, even to "explain things", even if you know you are 1000% not guilty of whatever they are after. So now it makes perfect sense to me that if they want to go trolling across your hard drive, they are doing exactly that - you are testifying against yourself for whatever charges they want to invent afterwards.

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#36

Post by maxawaytoolong »

dc2k08 wrote: post #19
BillGoatse wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until they ask him again, 16 weeks from now...

Can you be tried for the same crime twice?

In the USA you cannot be tried for the same crime twice under double jeopardy laws. From wikipedia:

There are three essential protections included in the double jeopardy principle, which are:

- being tried for the same crime after an acquittal

- retrial after a conviction, unless the conviction has been reversed, vacated or otherwise nullified

- being punished multiple times for the same offense

London and Wales repealed prohibition against double jeopardy in 2003, so if you live there, you can indeed be tried for the same crime twice.

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#37

Post by evgen »

camiller wrote: post #25
ck2 wrote: post #17

In the USA can you be compelled to testify against yourself by being coerced into giving a password to law enforcement? Has this been tested yet, out of curiosity? I remember reading they can deny you entry/exit to the USA if customs can't read your laptop but never heard anything like local/FBI. If not, I hope it doesn't go before this particular supreme court.

Apparently not, although I though I had read of an earlier case where there was a judge that ruled that a password had to be revealed. http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2008-02-07-encr...

In the US there are conflicting precedents at the moment, so it really depends on where the case is being heard. At the moment the case that seems to have the strongest route to the Supremes is the one involving child porn at the border, allowing the court to address both the "are passwords protected" question and the legality of laptop border searches. Unfortunately for the cyberliberty crowd this particular case is the last one they want to see before the court, the facts are not good and it provides an easy excuse for a "law and order" majority on the court to significantly extend the government's reach.

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#38

Post by omh »

vic_nyc wrote: post #23

I wonder why he didn't say he "forgot the password". Although it may seem implausible, how could they prove it's not true?

I think that the law is worded so that it's an offence to have encrypted files and not be able to decrypt them. Whether it's deliberate or just forgotten isn't relevant (though I'd hope it would make a difference in sentencing).

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#39

Post by rdtsc »

camiller wrote: post #18
kiba wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police will just beat you up until the secret come out. They're not going to say "Drats! Our evil plans are foiled!" http://xkcd.com/538/

nah, the police can't torture you for your password. Only the evil criminals can do that. The courts can incarcerate you for not revealing a password, it's is up to you the criminal to decide if the punishment for not revealing the password is more/less severe than the punishment for whatever crime your hiding the evidence of with the password. Edit: OK now I have found evidence to prove myself wrong. At some point i…

> Only the evil criminals can do that.

Depending on the country, the symmetric set difference between the police and "evil criminals" is quite small.

And even then when the police can't torture your officially, they can have ways of torturing you un-officially. They can lock you up with a group of gang members who are on the un-official "payroll" of the police. They rape and torture you until you reveal the password. The case in the media will come out as "my cellmate confessed in a moment of weakness and here is the password".

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