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Knative – Kubernetes-based platform to manage modern serverless workloads

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Re: Knative – Kubernetes-based platform to manage modern serverless workloads

#81

Post by mfer »

jacques_chester wrote: post #72
mfer wrote: post #59

I have a few questions. > Knative provides a set of middleware components that are essential to build modern, source-centric, and container-based applications that can run anywhere Are these middleware components that someone else is supposed to package together into something useful like a platform? The other bits lead me to think it's a platform of sorts in itself. So, why the talk of middleware? > Knative offers a…

> Are these middleware components that someone else is supposed to package together into something useful like a platform? The other bits lead me to think it's a platform of sorts in itself. So, why the talk of middleware? It's intended to be usable as a single installation with the option to install individual parts. The textbook case is Build -- you can get things done with or without it. > Are these reusable compo…

> Knative is PaaS--

Except it bills itself as serverless. In a PaaS your apps need to have a server (e.g., http server). Serverless (e.g., FaaS or Brigade) elsewhere doesn't need this. Stuff isn't long running.

How is long running software servers like this serverless?

> My personal view is that Build (and before long Pipelines) will be the main entryway to Knative.

Pipelines? That doesn't appear to be in the docs. What is Pipelines?

Re: Knative – Kubernetes-based platform to manage modern serverless workloads

#82

Post by dewitt »

otterley wrote: post #64
dewitt wrote: post #8

Thanks to everyone who played a part of this! The Google team is also watching this thread. Happy to answer any questions people have.

Can we see a design document/theory of operations, please? It’s difficult to evaluate this effort without understanding exactly what it is - namely, the constituent components, their respective functions, how they work and relate to one another, etc. Just a comment here about this in general - given all the resources at Google’s disposal, I’m perplexed as to why we don’t see world-class (or even at least halfway dece…

Is this something like what you're looking for?

https://github.com/knative/serving/blob/master/docs/spec/ove...

Or a little higher-level:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1CbwVC7W2JaSxRyltU8CS...

There are a lot of technical docs in the individual repositories. You can get started, for example, with the serving docs under:

https://github.com/knative/serving/tree/master/docs

Same for the other repos, like build and eventing.

Thanks for asking!

Re: Knative – Kubernetes-based platform to manage modern serverless workloads

#84

Post by jacques_chester »

mfer wrote: post #81
jacques_chester wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are these middleware components that someone else is supposed to package together into something useful like a platform? The other bits lead me to think it's a platform of sorts in itself. So, why the talk of middleware? It's intended to be usable as a single installation with the option to install individual parts. The textbook case is Build -- you can get things done with or without it. > Are these reusable compo…

> Knative is PaaS-- Except it bills itself as serverless. In a PaaS your apps need to have a server (e.g., http server). Serverless (e.g., FaaS or Brigade) elsewhere doesn't need this. Stuff isn't long running. How is long running software servers like this serverless? > My personal view is that Build (and before long Pipelines) will be the main entryway to Knative. Pipelines? That doesn't appear to be in the docs. W…

> Except it bills itself as serverless. In a PaaS your apps need to have a server (e.g., http server). Serverless (e.g., FaaS or Brigade) elsewhere doesn't need this. Stuff isn't long running.

I think this comes down to the difficulties of terminology. I think of FaaS as a PaaS with some extra features (scale-to-zero being the most-noticeable). "Serverless" is a catch-all term for a variety of workloads, of which FaaS is the most visible.

> Pipelines? That doesn't appear to be in the docs. What is Pipelines?

It's a proposal[0] to evolve Concourse into being a Knative component, picking up from Build for complex workflows. I've been working on parts of this with various folks over the past few months.

I should emphasise that it is a proposal. For what you do with Knative today, use Build. It's a simple abstraction and it works right now.

[0] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PicF7UhvSBpZLwichuY5hdhT... (to view, join the knative-dev group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/knative-dev)

Re: Knative – Kubernetes-based platform to manage modern serverless workloads

#85

Post by sytse »

mfer wrote: post #59

I have a few questions. > Knative provides a set of middleware components that are essential to build modern, source-centric, and container-based applications that can run anywhere Are these middleware components that someone else is supposed to package together into something useful like a platform? The other bits lead me to think it's a platform of sorts in itself. So, why the talk of middleware? > Knative offers a…

I just had a call with Josh, a GitLab product manager, that maybe helps with some of your questions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1jK4F4NoBw

Re: Knative – Kubernetes-based platform to manage modern serverless workloads

#86

Post by djhworld »

gdsdfe wrote: post #75
peterwwillis wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone also give us a 20 sentences explanation on how it works, or an example installation? "It does magic" still leaves me wondering if this is worth investigating.

You basically have a git repo that contains your business logic implemented as 'functions' and some configuration : knative will build, containerize, deploy, and glue/route those functions for you to make it a full fledged app. it will also take care of load balancing/scaling etc. So all you need really is focus on you business logic code and write some config for knative ... well this is at least the vision

Why isn't a polished version of this the blurb?

Re: Knative – Kubernetes-based platform to manage modern serverless workloads

#87

Post by otterley »

dewitt wrote: post #82
otterley wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we see a design document/theory of operations, please? It’s difficult to evaluate this effort without understanding exactly what it is - namely, the constituent components, their respective functions, how they work and relate to one another, etc. Just a comment here about this in general - given all the resources at Google’s disposal, I’m perplexed as to why we don’t see world-class (or even at least halfway dece…

Is this something like what you're looking for? https://github.com/knative/serving/blob/master/docs/spec/ove... Or a little higher-level: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1CbwVC7W2JaSxRyltU8CS... There are a lot of technical docs in the individual repositories. You can get started, for example, with the serving docs under: https://github.com/knative/serving/tree/master/docs Same for the other repos, like build…

Not really, I'm afraid. Resource descriptions don't constitute a theory of operations, and the higher-level document you linked to is not public.

By "theory of operations," I mean a design document, often but not always created before a line of code is written, that describes in plain English what is to be built (or, what was built). It often discusses things like:

* What problems are being solved?

* What attempts have already been made to solve the problem?

* How does it work? How do the components interrelate? How does one operate it, especially at scale?

* How does this solution solve the problems better than the alternatives?

There are lots of great examples out there. I like to point to Consul[1] as a textbook example of fantastic documentation, and it's been there since day 1. Google would do well to follow Hashicorp's and GNU's lead.

[1] https://www.consul.io

Re: Knative – Kubernetes-based platform to manage modern serverless workloads

#89

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

gdsdfe wrote: post #75
peterwwillis wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone also give us a 20 sentences explanation on how it works, or an example installation? "It does magic" still leaves me wondering if this is worth investigating.

You basically have a git repo that contains your business logic implemented as 'functions' and some configuration : knative will build, containerize, deploy, and glue/route those functions for you to make it a full fledged app. it will also take care of load balancing/scaling etc. So all you need really is focus on you business logic code and write some config for knative ... well this is at least the vision

How would this compare to something like serverless.com?

Re: Knative – Kubernetes-based platform to manage modern serverless workloads

#90

Post by djhworld »

jacques_chester wrote: post #12
gdsdfe wrote: post #10

I kinda have a hard time understanding what it is ... is it kinda a 'glue' layer between Kubernetes and istio ? Can somebody give us a 2 sentences explanation? please and thank you

You have source code. You want a simple way to turn it into running functions and apps, with eventing support, with clever routing and rollout capabilities, without lifting a finger. It's an abstraction layer being developed above both of Kubernetes and Istio.

You still need a Kubernetes cluster running though, right?
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