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Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

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Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#251
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Code monkeys" feels pretty derogatory when talking about people just doing the job they are paid for. It's especially unnecessary in a thread like this one where OP is doubting his skills and choices, and looking for help/direction.

I think the way that abledon used it here is fine. He wasn't saying "everyone else is a code monkey", he was saying "we are all code monkeys" himself included. In this context, it might actually help OP to relax a bit - the message is "Don't worry, you don't have to be a programming contest winner in order to work as a programmer. Many programming jobs are much lower stress and lower cognitive load than that", and ab…

Exactly. You must ask yourself what you want from this. If it's a secure-ish job, good pay, and relatively low-stress it's pretty easy to find.

If it's The Social Network style code-bro'ing, coding the cure to cancer, etc; well that's pretty easy to find too.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I took off about a year after I graduated, I kept working at my job and then when I decided to look for work it all lined up just perfectly. Look for jobs that want new programmers or interns is all I can say. Also: You do not have to ace the interview just show promise. What I mean is, even I've gone through interviews where I didn't know all the answers and they still kept wanting to follow up with me. Don'…

> where I didn't know all the answers and they still kept wanting to follow up with me. Absolutely this. The primary purpose of the interview is to establish whether or not you are competent enough to do the job. This doesn't necessarily mean having all of the skills out of the box, but whether you are capable of picking them up and have the basis to do so. Best piece of advice I could give is don't lie. If you don't…

>One of my purposes in interviews was literally to get the candidate to say they didn't know.

This. It's ok to admit you don't know everything in an interview. Some of my most glowing feedback from interviews came from interviews where I answered questions with a flat out "I don't know"

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. I've interviewed for many engineering jobs and lots of them involved solving puzzle-like problems on a whiteboard.

Are you US based? It may be a cultural thing as I have nevered heard of any engineers (and I know a good few dozen) who have had to do anything like that.

It's not even a culturally US-based thing. If anything, it might be the culture of some specific places in the US, likely places where programmers are dime-a-dozen and you can afford to exclude good people because great people are applying too. In the Midwest or Appalachia or most places in the South and most places in the prairie, companies are just glad someone is applying.

I have absolutely no hard evidence to back this up other than anecdotes from my network of colleagues, but the only places I've ever heard of doing programming challenges during an interview is the kind of places where programmers collect en masse. SV, Seattle, Austin, NYC, Boston, the places where when you post a CS job, you expect thousands of qualified candidates to apply.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#254
it's hard to say whether or not the problems you solve should take less than 2-5 hours, but two pieces of advice:

1. in an interview, whether you solve the problem is less important than demonstrating how you approach solving problems. think about it like being asked to find a needle in a haystack.

2. don't think you have to score a job at a Google right out of school. there are lots of opportunities in less stressful environments.

ok I lied, I have more advice...

3. as an alternative, write good quality useful software and post it to a hit repos, go answer questions on stack overflow, demonstrate your knowledge and abilities. become an expert in some area that interests you.

4. maybe you don't want to be a programmer. that's ok. your background will still give you an edge. I have a colleague that worked for a couple years as programmer and ditched it for PhD program in neuroscience (not thAt that is any less stressful).

5. consider getting professional career advice and coaching.

6. consider getting help for your anxiety. worrying whether your smart enough or how hard the problem is will keep you from actually problem solving.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#255
post #119

I don't know if this helps, but I personally find coding interview practice sites/problems to be extremely boring, difficult, not fun, and frustrating to work on. I'm saying this as a 13-years-of-experience software engineer; I've been called a rock star or ninja or something similar in almost every company and team I've worked in (big and small), and throughout my entire career and the numerous times I've job-hunted…

+1 to this. Similar story for me. Although I wont go so far as saying I am a rockstar I do have a reputation for building solid, maintainable, reliable code that works even though I have struggled in the high-pressure whiteboarding interviews (I'm currently at a company that is well-known/infamous for whiteboarding interviews too). There are different roles other than "software engineer" that are programming based, e…

> Similar story for me.

Another +1 here. I got so sick of programming interviews that I went freelance. If at any time a potential client suggests I need to do a whiteboard style interview, I decline and offer to work for them for a week at half price.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#258

#1: have you talked to an occupational therapist? Software is going to be stressful, there are going to be time pressures. You might find an organization/industry where these are minimized. Medical, aerospace move at a very slow pace. I can think of a few companies in the industrial space where things move at a pretty slow pace as well. Otherwise, software test, product management, documentation off the top of my hea…

I think you're on the right track with therapy, just probably not occupational therapy unless you need rehabilitation for problems with fine motor movements (holding a spoon, writing, etc.)

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#259

Lots of great comments so far, but I would add that an alternative approach would be to find an open source project that you feel you could contribute to. Start at ground level fixing bugs and work your way up. It will look great on your resume and would be way more productive than just focusing on interview prep. If nothing else it will help you determine if you actually do enjoy programming.

This is just my opinion, but when I was in OP's shoes I found this to be the least helpful piece of advice I ever got. I was lucky enough to realize that programming stressed me out early on, early enough that I could switch majors into something that I liked better. But I still wanted to be a programmer, even if it was just as a hobby.

What I didn't like about being a real career programmer was the time stress, the expectation that you'll write code that works, and especially having to write code for someone else, where you're trying to translate their ideas and trying to do so correctly with limited information.

Contributing to open source sometimes (in my experience) embodies all of these in one. I've found a lot of really helpful open source projects where this isn't the case and everyone is nice and helpful, but you'll also find some times where the maintainer is mean, doesn't like your code, your code doesn't fit their style, and they're going to make sure you understand that. And if you spend your time writing good code, then do a pull request just to find out someone had already beaten you to it? Oh god... I'm stressing just writing this out.

Even if it's just 5% of the projects that are like this, to someone who already has crippling anxiety about their skills as a programmer, being put under public scrutiny is unthinkable. One bad experience and you might be gone forever.

What actually helped me was getting a job in another field and finding ways to write bash scripts or python scripts to help, with each script increasing in complexity until I had hundreds of small programs that I designed and wrote and improved over time. Zero stress, zero expectation, but when they work it feels amazing and is a great boost in confidence.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#260

I'd guess that implementing Fizz Buzz or describing a basic database schema is enough to get hired to 50% of programming jobs. That includes quite a few senior positions. Not exaggerating, Fizz Buzz or a similarly trivial problem is the only tech screen more often than you'd expect. Not only that, but the algorithm challenges are less common now. It's been a long time since I interviewed with a company that didn't gi…

> the algorithm challenges are less common now

That may be more a result of how your work history rather than shift in the industry norms.

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