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Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

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Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#161

You don't have a job yet, so you don't actually know what being a programmer is like. You're stressing out about what you think being a programmer is like, and worse, you're stressing out about what you think how a programmer is hired . Sit back, relax, go talk to someone who actually does the job, and re-evaluate once you're better contextualized.

Yeah like I said in another thread, CTCI is for more of a software __engineering__ role. There are lots of really easy software developement jobs where you ain’t doing algorithmic/dataatructures, just chilling with other code monkeys , humming Katy perry tunes and stackoverflow searching 4 hrs a day, the rest is breaks and hn reading

A candidate displaying the attitude shown in this post would not pass the culture fit round if the company needs team players.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#162
I checked out some of your previous posts and see that you are really, earnestly struggling with your decision to get into programming.

I feel for you, and I'll try to give you some advice with my "professional programmer"(TM) hat on.

Um, first, I think it would be helpful for you to find a way to ease up on the pressure you're putting yourself under. Maybe that means getting a "good enough" job in the meantime, or just a "regular job" (minimum-wage style), so as to get some immediate cash flow going. If money isn't a stressor for you, maybe just take some down time. (That top comment is top for good reason).

The second bit of advice would be to just actually go do the interviews, whether or not you think you've prepared "enough". You're a fresh college grad, and no-one is going to expect you to have all the answers. Don't worry about fucking up, basically, because of course you're going to. The key is just persistence -- don't let the fucking up get you too down, because you've still got to go to that next interview -- and make sure you learn from your fuck-ups, so you don't keep fucking up in the same way.

I can't tell you how scared I was during some of my first interviews. Reaching out a sweaty hand because I was a bundle of nerves is just one terrible experience. But if I hadn't had that experience ... well, you get the point.

Maybe programming isn't for you, but maybe a job you don't love will pay the bills, and that's okay. Or maybe it's just that leetcode and CTCI aren't for you. I mean, some of this interview stuff is like "security theater" at the airport, only it's "interview theater" at the whiteboard. Ineffectual at best, but demoralizing and humiliating at worst.

Don't let the red-black trees fool you. There is real work to be done!

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#163
post #53

Programming isn't for everyone. Now, before I answer your question, let me echo what most other people are saying. Unless you were already a good programmer before you started, or you spent your university days holed up in your room coding for fun, the chances are that you will be absolutely crap when you graduate. You have the advantage that you already know it (most people, including my young self, are considerably…

>Project management, etc. It helps to spend a few years as a programmer before you move into this field. It doesn't matter if you are the worst coder on earth before you move. If you write on your CV, "I've been a programmer for the last 3 or 4 years, but I really want to get into project management", you may have to take measures to protect your physical safety as people rush to grab you (programmers, as a rule, do…

Yeah, getting promoted from within is the easiest route. If you are employed now, try talking to your manager and seeing if there are any opportunities. If it's a small team, you may find that you can transition pretty easily just by volunteering to do all the grunt work for planning and writing up acceptance criteria and talking with stake holders, etc.

If you already have project managers in your company, I would get friendly with one or two and tell them that you are interested in learning how to do the job. If you work with one in particular on your team, then ask them if you can sit in on stake holder meetings (with your manager's approval of course!), etc.

If that avenue is impossible, then I would try to find a recruiter you can trust and say that you are looking for a job where you can transition to that kind of role. Recruiters are often looking for that kind of person. Experienced project managers are often quite expensive. It can be a bit of a gamble when you are hiring them because the job is quite difficult and skill levels are pretty variable. If you can imagine the impact of a developer that has a bad attitude, now imagine the impact of a project manager with a bad attitude :-) One of the cool things about the role is that you can have a kind of multiplier effect -- but that effect can be fairly destructive if there is a problem.

Anyway, I've definitely worked in groups where we were begging recruiters to find someone who could start as a developer and then transition into a project manager... Never even got a single person to interview :-).

As far as training is concerned, it's probably not going to be possible. In the ideal world, organisations would know what they needed and be able to train up people to fulfil that role. In the case of project managers, usually they just wing it :-) (As a sidebar, the absolute best project managers I've worked with were either trained as building architects, or worked their way up from being a personal assistant -- so you can get an idea of the kinds of skills you need).

Again, if you don't feel confident in doing the role right away, I would inflict yourself on your current team and experiment :-) There is just so much work to be done all the time on gathering requirements, understanding acceptance criteria (and documenting it), writing up notes for the "big picture", making charts to help people understand progress, communicating with stake holders (even if it's just walking up to them and being friendly, so that there is as to build up a good rapport), etc. If I was on a team that didn't welcome some help in that department, I would start looking for another situation anyway. As is often the case, you may have to put in a few hours of overtime here and there so that you have time for the extra work, but eventually people will start to depend on you and you can easily justify it in your normal day job.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#164
post #119

I don't know if this helps, but I personally find coding interview practice sites/problems to be extremely boring, difficult, not fun, and frustrating to work on. I'm saying this as a 13-years-of-experience software engineer; I've been called a rock star or ninja or something similar in almost every company and team I've worked in (big and small), and throughout my entire career and the numerous times I've job-hunted…

100% agree with this

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#165
The problem is smaller than you think. You need time.

Dunno if that helps, but I've been programming since 8 years old. When I did college there was definitely a considerable amount of people that I might consider that... they didn't know how to code or to properly solve problems, but that's because they didn't improve their problem solving skills.

If you have no monetary or legal obligations, just stay at your parents place, sit down, create a SPOJ account and go problem by problem until you are confident. If I had quit 2 years off my career to study problem solving now that I am 30, it would rarely make me lose anything, much less in a 30 years of work timeframe.

Go get rid of that anxiety I think you can only solve it by being more confident, and to be confident you need time. It is much easier to be a good guitar player if you start as a kid, but I bet that anybody that dedicate a few years will be able to perform well, peogramming is the same.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#166

You don't have a job yet, so you don't actually know what being a programmer is like. You're stressing out about what you think being a programmer is like, and worse, you're stressing out about what you think how a programmer is hired . Sit back, relax, go talk to someone who actually does the job, and re-evaluate once you're better contextualized.

Yeah like I said in another thread, CTCI is for more of a software __engineering__ role. There are lots of really easy software developement jobs where you ain’t doing algorithmic/dataatructures, just chilling with other code monkeys , humming Katy perry tunes and stackoverflow searching 4 hrs a day, the rest is breaks and hn reading

"Code monkeys" feels pretty derogatory when talking about people just doing the job they are paid for.

It's especially unnecessary in a thread like this one where OP is doubting his skills and choices, and looking for help/direction.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#167
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really great advice. Being too stressed during an interview is not good for looking like a good job candidate. I’ll have to check out that book too, because I personally get a little too stressed public speaking, so thanks for the recommendation. That’s one of the great things about questions like these is they can be very relatable and you get such great advice from all walks of life.

Thanks. Since you mentioned public speaking, I would also strongly recommend Toastmasters as a way to improve your public speaking and overcoming-anxiety skills. I've personally tried it, and it really helped.

I have been planning to join Toastmasters for the past 2 years but for procrastination!

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#169

If you have passable people skills and enjoy a bit of travel, you may consider sales engineering. You basically handle all of the technical things that are over the heads of the normal sales team, both pre and post sales. This will often look like integration type work -- trying to figure out how to make your companies product work in the prospect/customer's environment.

Yep, it's invaluable if your sales guy actually knows a little bit about the technology, even if they can't implement much themselves.

Re: Ask HN: Got a CS degree, but I’m unable to be programmer. What can I do?

#170
post #119

I don't know if this helps, but I personally find coding interview practice sites/problems to be extremely boring, difficult, not fun, and frustrating to work on. I'm saying this as a 13-years-of-experience software engineer; I've been called a rock star or ninja or something similar in almost every company and team I've worked in (big and small), and throughout my entire career and the numerous times I've job-hunted…

> “really easy interview and we just talked about my experience and projects“ This is what interviewing is like in 99% of other sectors, even engineering. You might be asked some competency based questions at a larger organisation but the whole “dance like a monkey in a high pressure environment while we watch” whiteboard/coding test feels like cruel and unusual punishment to me that is nothing like the job of actual…

It is testing for people who can solve the below 5 percent of real problems under immense pressure. Even development crunch does not work like these tests.

The trouble is, the skillet to do so is not actually overlapping with the one needed for prolonged deep or repetitive work. So you end up hiring either fresh heads from such pressuring environments, super geniuses (yeah right) or people who learned to pass and game these tests.

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