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The Masculine Mystique of T

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11–20 of 68 posts

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#11
As a man in my early twenties, I found myself with a sexual partner for the first time and was dismayed to find that I couldn't achieve orgasm through intercourse. I asked a doctor and he found my testosterone to be very low, well below the "normal range" cutoffs. I was prescribed testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), where I would inject myself every other week with testosterone, not unlike body builders though with the goal of obtaining normal levels not supraphysiological ones. According to bloodwork, that goal was met (which means if my T levels were now normal in the middle of the two weeks that they were certainly well above the normal range for the first day or two after an injection).

However, I felt no effects of the hormone. It did not solve the original problem - my libido was flat, my erections still adequate but no more energized than before, my intercourse still failing to stimulate me to orgasm. But I had also read the literature ahead of time and had come with expectations of many other side-effects that sounded great: the obvious muscle and strength effects, increased alertness or energy, decreased fat percentage. It seemed like everything that could be improved, was! (Except infertility and a chance to grow boobs in an ironic twist of stereotypes.) But I didn't see any of those effects - my numbers at the gym were still unremarkable, I still sometimes felt tired for no reason, my body looked the same. As far as I could tell, I was on placebo - except the bloodwork confirmed its effects. (I think I experienced more spontaneous nighttime erections, something that I only naturally got sporadically and considered more of a nuisance than a benefit.)

This was extremely disheartening. I stopped taking it after half a year when my relationship died in large part due to lack of good sex.

I say this mostly because all accounts of TRT seem to skew towards the miraculous. Like all things, its effects vary from person to person. Had I had tempered expectations, maybe I would not have been so discouraged. Maybe I would have tried alternative approaches to solving my problems. I don't know.

Some years later, I finally had satisfying sex. No medication involved, just a little persistence and finding the right person. I still struggle with not climaxing every time and sometimes am fantasizing that I could go back onto T and fix that. Maybe I'll try it again with expectations for a small, incremental improvement. Or maybe not.

So while this article is being met with a fairly negative reception in this comments, I actually found it a breath of fresh air. Had I read it ahead of time, I might have had more realistic expectations! I didn't really read it as giving a stamp of approval to attempts to over-state the sociological and gender studies points of view (it seems fairly critical of those, opting more to just say that it was too complex a hormone to sum up as a miraculously masculine molecule). Those using it to reshape society seem to be criticized by the article as possibly relying mostly on placebo effects, on society's expectations for what testosterone should do, ironically.

Also, the literature on TRT is surprisingly limited. I thought that young males with below normal levels, as one of the most approved recipients of TRT, would have been a large portion of the studies. Instead, I struggled to find ones that studied my cohort. Older men with dropping T levels (which is entirely normal) were often the subjects, presumably because that's where the money is these days. I worry also that the increasing use of it in young transgender people may be equally poorly studied.

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#12
post #4

What a strange meandering article. The author seems almost to be seeking confusion. Since she quotes Cordelia Fine approvingly, here's an amusing review from a slightly different perspective: https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2017/03/20/old-t-rex/

That’s a looooot or claims without anything like citations and support in that blog. It all sounds alright until you realize it’s a house of cards shown to you at a very particular angle under the best possible light. I was sort of curious if it was a one-off from someone who didn’t know how to source their claims, but reading some more on that site it seems to be more like very genteel propaganda. The theme seems to…

It’s a blog post. Basically everything there is not controversial in the relevant fields.

The difference in spatial rotation is extremely well replicated:https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19086027_Emergence_...

The difference in grip strength:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/

It just is the case that professional women’s sports teams lose to male high school teams regularly:https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/blo...

I don’t think lack of citations is your true objection.

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#13
post #4

What a strange meandering article. The author seems almost to be seeking confusion. Since she quotes Cordelia Fine approvingly, here's an amusing review from a slightly different perspective: https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2017/03/20/old-t-rex/

That’s a looooot or claims without anything like citations and support in that blog. It all sounds alright until you realize it’s a house of cards shown to you at a very particular angle under the best possible light. I was sort of curious if it was a one-off from someone who didn’t know how to source their claims, but reading some more on that site it seems to be more like very genteel propaganda. The theme seems to…

I agree citations would be nice, but not having them doesn't make it false, just means you need to do the research yourself.

For example, a quick google corroborates the boys under 15 team beating the women pro soccer team [1]. Or men dying twice as much in car accidents[2].

1. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3609949/Ma...

2. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalit...

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#14
post #8

strange article, not fully accurate either. > no one individual gets to choose precisely what changes it produces. As one friend who had started T said to me, “Let me know if you find a way to get the big muscles and keep the head hair! Actually, we know. DHT causes the male pattern baldness. The conversion from T to DHT by 5 alpha reductase can be blocked by drugs. We don't have good topicals or selective drugs yet,…

DHT plus the male pattern baldness genes. Not everyone who takes T would even be affected at all hair wise, propecia or not.

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#15

Intriguing why someone would try to analyze a biological compound through a cultural / political / sociological lens without at least giving some reference to actual scientific research. I have no clue whether anything in this article is true or false. Only that people might have used Testosterone to justify male dominance. Not saying it is false, but like what is the evidence? I just see vague anecdotes and personal…

Whenever testosterone comes up, I always think of the study showing testosterone levels change in sports fans according to whether their preferred team wins or loses[1].

The interest for me is not so much in the question of testosterone and dominance, but more to do with how mere perception of events whose meaning is entirely culturally determined can mediate hormone levels in this way.

Winning at football is very different from winning at a fight, that is - you need to understand football's rules to understand who's won, whereas the winner of a fight is immediately clear.

Thinking about it, though, I guess ritualised proxies for fighting to establish dominance (like antler fights, etc.) might be thought to occupy an intermediate position.

1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9811365

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a looooot or claims without anything like citations and support in that blog. It all sounds alright until you realize it’s a house of cards shown to you at a very particular angle under the best possible light. I was sort of curious if it was a one-off from someone who didn’t know how to source their claims, but reading some more on that site it seems to be more like very genteel propaganda. The theme seems to…

It’s a blog post. Basically everything there is not controversial in the relevant fields. The difference in spatial rotation is extremely well replicated: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19086027_Emergence_... The difference in grip strength: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/ It just is the case that professional women’s sports teams lose to male high school teams regularly: https://www.google.…

I wasn’t concerned about no-brainers like grip-strength, which really in no way bears on the central claims made.

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#17
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a blog post. Basically everything there is not controversial in the relevant fields. The difference in spatial rotation is extremely well replicated: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19086027_Emergence_... The difference in grip strength: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/ It just is the case that professional women’s sports teams lose to male high school teams regularly: https://www.google.…

I wasn’t concerned about no-brainers like grip-strength, which really in no way bears on the central claims made.

Then provide some examples.

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#18
The article hints that the effects of testosterone may be placebo, but at least physical muscle-wise, I’ve always found this study fascinating. Summary of the study - guys who took excessive amounts of testosterone who sat on the couch build 3x the muscle of men who worked out naturally with weights consistently.

https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/steroids-vs-natural/

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#19

Intriguing why someone would try to analyze a biological compound through a cultural / political / sociological lens without at least giving some reference to actual scientific research. I have no clue whether anything in this article is true or false. Only that people might have used Testosterone to justify male dominance. Not saying it is false, but like what is the evidence? I just see vague anecdotes and personal…

> Intriguing why someone would try to analyze a biological compound through a cultural / political / sociological lens without at least giving some reference to actual scientific research.

I don't think it's all that strange, given the situation. Testosterone appears to be a cultural and even economic phenomenon irrespective of its actual effects. There's a whole franchise chain of doctor's offices branded as "Low T Centers", which I don't think I've seen for any other biological compound. It's not a big stretch to say that people interested in that kind of thing are predominantly more interested in an experience than they are in a molecule. It's not entirely unlike "pot culture" or "drinking culture", etc..

Re: The Masculine Mystique of T

#20

As a man in my early twenties, I found myself with a sexual partner for the first time and was dismayed to find that I couldn't achieve orgasm through intercourse. I asked a doctor and he found my testosterone to be very low, well below the "normal range" cutoffs. I was prescribed testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), where I would inject myself every other week with testosterone, not unlike body builders though wi…

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