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Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

finance.yahoo.com

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Re: Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

#51

Post by empthought »

rusk wrote: post #49
394549 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the common case for Apple users (listening to iTunes), the AirPods will have the same quality as wired headphones, since they play back with the same codec/bitrate either way (256kbps AAC). Are they literally piping the AAC-encoded bitstream as it appears in the iTune files straight to the AirPods with no manipulation? Because if they're decoding then re-encoding (e.g. decoding the file to raw to pass to the OS,…

> they're decoding then re-encoding That’s what’s happening. It’s not like Bluetooth uses the AAC codec, it must be decoded and reencoded. I’ve done a direct comparison and the deifference is clearly audible.

This is inaccurate when applied to AirPods or other good Bluetooth audio products manufactured in the last couple years. It is accurate for products that only support SBC, though.

Bluetooth A2DP supports AAC and AirPods support AAC. Apple would never have released them if this were not the case, because they would sound awful.

Re: Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

#52

Post by empthought »

394549 wrote: post #42
empthought wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the common case for Apple users (listening to iTunes), the AirPods will have the same quality as wired headphones, since they play back with the same codec/bitrate either way (256kbps AAC). Now if they're wired headphones with gold-plated connectors, that's a whole different ballgame.

> In the common case for Apple users (listening to iTunes), the AirPods will have the same quality as wired headphones, since they play back with the same codec/bitrate either way (256kbps AAC). Are they literally piping the AAC-encoded bitstream as it appears in the iTune files straight to the AirPods with no manipulation? Because if they're decoding then re-encoding (e.g. decoding the file to raw to pass to the OS,…

Yes, they are literally piping the AAC-encoded bitstream as it appears in the iTunes files with no manipulation. Why would they decode it only to re-encode it?

Re: Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

#53

Post by close04 »

charlesism wrote: post #47
close04 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are re-living their 2003-2004 period when the IBM PPC G5 CPU was way too hot and power hungry to put in the PowerBook and it needed water cooling in the PowerMac. Back then their solution was to switch to Intel CPUs. Now it's probably going to be to switch to in-house designed ARM CPUs.

It's a terrible argument, but I agree it's probably how Apple views things. If they're willing to sacrifice build-quality, ports, and a decent keyboard all in the name of thinness... I suppose adding a fraction of an inch of headroom in the bottom case is unthinkable to them.

Analysed in a vacuum yes, it's a terrible argument. But if you look at it through Apple magnifying glass it makes sense. They are locked on the objective of making their devices thin enough to be able to shave with one of them and whatever Intel is doing is no longer fitting this concept.

One other thing Apple is aiming for is to go back to fully controlling the development and integration of their products. This means the HW and the SW. It worked just fine for them with the phones, admittedly a segment where no major architectural/compatibility changes were needed.

We'll get to see if they can pull it off in a segment where the compatibility is a huge burden. Microsoft tried and failed perhaps for this very reason: no control over the HW. Also an even bigger burden of legacy (likely the biggest of any SW company). But Apple already managed to transition from 68000 to PPC to x86. They'd really set a hard to beat record if they manage to move to ARM even if just for the regular laptop lines (Air, MB) and not the Pros.

Re: Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

#54

Post by 394549 »

empthought wrote: post #52
394549 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the common case for Apple users (listening to iTunes), the AirPods will have the same quality as wired headphones, since they play back with the same codec/bitrate either way (256kbps AAC). Are they literally piping the AAC-encoded bitstream as it appears in the iTune files straight to the AirPods with no manipulation? Because if they're decoding then re-encoding (e.g. decoding the file to raw to pass to the OS,…

Yes, they are literally piping the AAC-encoded bitstream as it appears in the iTunes files with no manipulation. Why would they decode it only to re-encode it?

> Why would they decode it only to re-encode it?

Because it's more generic and easier to implement. I would imagine to support streaming AAC from the file to the AirPods, they'd need to create a special channel for it in the OS's sound system.

Even with that, I don't think it'd work in all cases. Sometimes you have to manipulate the audio. What happens when you need to mix in audio from an app, like an alert sound? The AirPods can't keep using the file's unmodified AAC stream, so you'd have to temporarily stop streaming that to them, decode it, mix in the app audio, re-encode that, and ship the modified stream to the AirPods. All the while you have to keep the timing prefect throughout all the changes or it will be even worse-sounding due to the skips.

It's a lot easier to just decode-mix-reencode all the time, since that's a pretty straightforward pipeline, instead of having to switch back and forth between different audio streaming methods, and deal with loads of extra complexity.

Re: Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

#55

Post by close04 »

rusk wrote: post #25
close04 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are re-living their 2003-2004 period when the IBM PPC G5 CPU was way too hot and power hungry to put in the PowerBook and it needed water cooling in the PowerMac. Back then their solution was to switch to Intel CPUs. Now it's probably going to be to switch to in-house designed ARM CPUs.

> in-house designed ARM CPUs. What could possibly go wrong!

With the CPU design or the transition to a new ISA? Lots of things can go wrong at any time even by doing nothing. But Apple does have a team of pretty good engineers that managed to design what's probably the fastest (best?) ARM cores on the market, and with good enough perf/Watt numbers. So I doubt their biggest hurdle will be to design a CPU.

It will be to split the "MacOS" ecosystem in 2 and maintain two branches for x86 and ARM. And while they also have a team of pretty good software engineers with x86 and ARM experience they are already having major quality control problems lately. Having to maintain a dual ISA MacOS will be a challenge. Then they have to provide the legacy compatibility in order to convince people to buy into something with little to no support for most of what's out there today.

But you know... we could use some diversity in this space. I wish them all the best.

Re: Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

#56

Post by 394549 »

close04 wrote: post #55
rusk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in-house designed ARM CPUs. What could possibly go wrong!

With the CPU design or the transition to a new ISA? Lots of things can go wrong at any time even by doing nothing. But Apple does have a team of pretty good engineers that managed to design what's probably the fastest (best?) ARM cores on the market, and with good enough perf/Watt numbers. So I doubt their biggest hurdle will be to design a CPU. It will be to split the "MacOS" ecosystem in 2 and maintain two branches…

> It will be to split the "MacOS" ecosystem in 2 and maintain two branches for x86 and ARM. And while they also have a team of pretty good software engineers with x86 and ARM experience they are already having major quality control problems lately. Having to maintain a dual ISA MacOS will be a challenge. Then they have to provide the legacy compatibility in order to convince people to buy into something with little to no support for most of what's out there today.

They've done that twice before (68k -> PPC, PPC -> Intel), and IIRC, seem to be preparing to do it again (Bitcode).

I think the biggest risk for Apple is that they may not be able to keep up with x86 on the desktop performance front. They have a much smaller market to amortize the R&D over than Intel does.

Re: Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

#57

Post by close04 »

close04 wrote: post #55
rusk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in-house designed ARM CPUs. What could possibly go wrong!

With the CPU design or the transition to a new ISA? Lots of things can go wrong at any time even by doing nothing. But Apple does have a team of pretty good engineers that managed to design what's probably the fastest (best?) ARM cores on the market, and with good enough perf/Watt numbers. So I doubt their biggest hurdle will be to design a CPU. It will be to split the "MacOS" ecosystem in 2 and maintain two branches…

@394549, I don't doubt that they can do it, as I was also saying a couple of comments above this one. But at what price? The difference is that now they have big QA issues before having to maintain the 2 branches. Their software (and possibly the software team) a decade and a half ago when they were moving to Intel was in a lot better shape. Unless I'm looking at this through nostalgia goggles. :)

Re: Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

#58

Post by rusk »

close04 wrote: post #57
close04 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the CPU design or the transition to a new ISA? Lots of things can go wrong at any time even by doing nothing. But Apple does have a team of pretty good engineers that managed to design what's probably the fastest (best?) ARM cores on the market, and with good enough perf/Watt numbers. So I doubt their biggest hurdle will be to design a CPU. It will be to split the "MacOS" ecosystem in 2 and maintain two branches…

@394549, I don't doubt that they can do it, as I was also saying a couple of comments above this one. But at what price? The difference is that now they have big QA issues before having to maintain the 2 branches. Their software (and possibly the software team) a decade and a half ago when they were moving to Intel was in a lot better shape. Unless I'm looking at this through nostalgia goggles. :)

They were also moving to a well established architecture from their own bespoke one and now they’re going the other way ...

Re: Apple fans returning new MacBook Pros with Core i9

#59

Post by rusk »

394549 wrote: post #56
close04 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the CPU design or the transition to a new ISA? Lots of things can go wrong at any time even by doing nothing. But Apple does have a team of pretty good engineers that managed to design what's probably the fastest (best?) ARM cores on the market, and with good enough perf/Watt numbers. So I doubt their biggest hurdle will be to design a CPU. It will be to split the "MacOS" ecosystem in 2 and maintain two branches…

> It will be to split the "MacOS" ecosystem in 2 and maintain two branches for x86 and ARM. And while they also have a team of pretty good software engineers with x86 and ARM experience they are already having major quality control problems lately. Having to maintain a dual ISA MacOS will be a challenge. Then they have to provide the legacy compatibility in order to convince people to buy into something with little t…

The biggest risk for Apple is they’ve become a shiny things company and don’t really have the engineering stones for doing this kind of thing any more
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