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The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

quantamagazine.org

61–70 of 192 posts

Re: The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the simplest theory be the most likely to be true?

Less edge cases mean it's less likely to break if we discover a new particle or something else unexpected

I guess that's a good overview. It's related to the phenomenon of overfitting in machine learning: you can always easily find a sufficiently complex (or complicated, large if you prefer) theory fitting all data points. Because this theory simply encodes each observed case (including progressive sophistications of encoding), you naturally expect it to fail on unobserved cases -- it makes no effort at generalization. The simpler theories have a greater chance of generalization, they're more likely to be the "true" mechanism of the process that doesn't simply encode "edge cases" as you cited, and thus are more likely to also work on unobserved data.

Honestly I haven't seen attempts at making this process more rigorous, when applied to physics. There's the large corpus of machine learning study which provides concrete results and even concrete comparison tools, but the times I've asked a physicist I've been dismissed; while it seems incredibly valuable in the face of lack or large cost of experimental data, which is quite relevant today.

Re: The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

#62

> “Because while it’s very easy to imagine noncommutative situations — putting on shoes then socks is different from socks then shoes — it’s very difficult to think of a nonassociative situation.” If, instead of putting on socks then shoes, you first put your socks into your shoes, technically you should still then be able to put your feet into both and get the same result. “The parentheses feel artificial.” > The oc…

If you're looking for a deep look at time -- a Total Perspective Vortex, I'd recommend "Spontaneous Inflation and the Origin of the Arrow of Time".

https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0410270

Re: The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

#63
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And he funded his studies, initially, as a hobby alongside a job. We’ve not progressed very far if ground breaking research almost requires a person to find a novel study path.

What do you mean by "novel study path" here? Funding yourself with money received from a job? On my first reading I took "novel study path" to mean new research techniques or something along those lines, which seems obvious and is not likely what you meant.

Either applies really.

Re: The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

#64
It's rather amusing that the author assumes that non-associtiave objects are "weird" for physicists (or at least that was my reading), since the velocity addition formula is in general non-associative and that has been extensively studied.

(I remember three separate occasions in my undergrad particle physics class where we actually went through all the calculations involved with the velocity addition formula and finally saw that SOL was wacky).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity-addition_formula

I wonder if that is uncommon or if the article is just a bit ungenerous towards our understanding of non-associative objects.

Re: The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's just that multiplication and division lose most of their useful properties. Specifically they lose the property of not having zero divisors. There exists sedonions a,b != 0 such that ab = 0

Another (related) property that fails is that inverses stop being useful for cancellation. Inverses still exist, for every p there's a q with pq = qp = 1, but if you've got an equation ap = b you can't cancel to get a = bq, because we don't have associativity. The left hand side (ap)q doesn't equal a(pq), so you can't reduce it to a. Of course associativity doesn't hold in the octonions either, but it holds just enou…

Yeah, octonion multiplication is alternative.

Re: The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

#67
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's just that multiplication and division lose most of their useful properties. Specifically they lose the property of not having zero divisors. There exists sedonions a,b != 0 such that ab = 0

That happens in general for matrices too.

Yes, and this is a bit obvious, but reals, complex numbers, split complex numbers, quaternions, octonions, sedenions, can all be represented as matrices of the appropriate form.

Re: The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely what we're looking for is the simplest theory among the theories that hit all the datapoints. That's the theory that's most likely to be the "Theory of Everything" and therefore to continue working when we upgrade our collider.

Why would the simplest theory be the most likely to be true?

This is a good question, and one that I don't have a complete or rigorous answer to. But I can describe my intuition:

A theory is just a list of assertions. In the absence of any evidence, each assertion is just as likely to be true as false. Therefore the probability of a theory with n assertions is 2^-n. So the more assertions there are, the less probability.

Re: The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> http://www.chinedufn.com/dual-quaternion-shader-explained/ Offset curve deformations blow dual quaternion's out of the water for rigging!

Tell me more. I briefly looked it up and I do agree it does look somewhat nicer. However how's the performance.

Fast enough for use in live character rigs in film running on the CPU -- I know the technique is used at Sony Imageworks and at Dreamworks. I can't comment on whether the method is suitable for live rigs in games, or how it would translate the GPU.

Re: The Octonion Math That Could Underpin Physics

#70

It's rather amusing that the author assumes that non-associtiave objects are "weird" for physicists (or at least that was my reading), since the velocity addition formula is in general non-associative and that has been extensively studied. (I remember three separate occasions in my undergrad particle physics class where we actually went through all the calculations involved with the velocity addition formula and fina…

To be fair, one never talks of relativistic "velocities" beyond undergrad physics. It is much easier to talk about Lorentz "boosts", and as members of a Lie Group, they are associative, though not commutative.
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