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How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

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Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#41

Post by dluan »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #3

The Macallan is kind of a special case of sherry barrel aging nowadays. Because of US laws that require aging bourbon in new, freshly charred, American oak barrels, a large quantity of the barrels sold to distillers across the globe are "ex bourbon." So, now, an awful lot of booze out there -- and not just whiskey, but also American brandy and some Caribbean rums -- tastes sorta like bourbon.

It's kind of crazy just how much cheap swill gets sloshed around at minimum time just so that it qualifies the bond - only then to ship the barrels around to other producers for re-aging. IIRC most of barrels from Beam and Brown-Forman?

Lately it seems like there's so many sherry-aged whiskies and whiskey-aged something or other, or first-fill, second-fill, ends up traveling over three continents. Seems like the barrel coopers are the ones doing the best, but even then the wood itself is pretty contentious in terms of quality versus hype.

Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#42

Post by dluan »

flyinghamster wrote: post #10
tptacek wrote: post #6

Sherry is the reason people like Macallan, but: * lots of Scotch has no sherry, and, particularly, the smokey peaty Islays tend not to be sherried at all. Sherried Scotch is a distinctive style, mostly centered in Speyside. * There are better, cheaper sherry bomb whiskies than Macallan; try Aberlour A’bunadh (cheap, excellent) and Glendronach (still substantially cheaper than Macallan, and I think much better). The b…

A great deal of the flavoring from bourbon casks goes into the bourbon. American straight whiskeys always require new, charred oak. Hmmm, I wonder if any Scotch gets aged in casks that were used for rye whiskey, and how much difference there would be compared to a bourbon cask? Scotch can be aged in any oak, new or previously used, and more recently, there have been other types of casks (such as port, or French oak)…

IMO it seems the boom in various finishes is a response to NAS stuff being the norm and for producers to try and do something different with limited stock.

I've had some wonderful wine finished whiskies - Leoville Barton Green Spot was amazing - and also some horrifying wine finished ones - Chateau Montelena Zinfandel Green Spot was hard to swallow.

For some new producers like Kavalan or Amrut, whose almost entire lines are sherry, ex-bourbon, rum, and port finished casks, it seems like the way to make a dent in the market hype without having to have really good base whiskey.

I'm just waiting for all that noise to be replaced by interesting woods - Quercus Garryana in the PNW of American whiskies is like the IPA of whiskey. Throw in some biology whizzes and the American craft whiskey market is going to be very interesting in the next 10 years.

Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#43

Post by dluan »

tptacek wrote: post #33
HillaryBriss wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Scotland, ex bourbon barrels go through a process of "rejuvenation" to expose flavor bearing compounds still found deeper in the wood: "... why not scrape out the inside of the cask and toast it again? After toasting the cask is charred anew, and voilà: You have a new, activated cask. ... A bourbon cask, used for 2 to 4 years in the USA, can be used for another 30 years in Scotland." https://www.whisky.com/informa…

Right, the casks still work, but it's not like aging scotch in William Larue Weller casks works any better than Jim Beam casks. It's just a source of oak.

Until someone tries this and shares a sample with me, I would bet that it would taste great.

Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#44

Post by js2 »

TylerE wrote: post #26
vowelless wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aberlour A’bunadh Where are you getting cheap Aberlour A'bunadh?? It's my favorite scotch but I cannot find it for less than 2 to 3 times the price of Macallan 12. Also, Glenmorangie is a delicious sherry scotch. Tastes a lot like Macallan and usually cheaper. > The big trend in Scotch is towards “no age statement” (NAS) bottlings, because Scotland is not keeping up with resurgent global demand. NAS bottles are you…

Even here in the ABC state of NC A'bunadh is readily available and goes for about $87+tax. Macallan 12 is about$65-70.

ABC NC prices are reasonable. It's the selection that sucks. I guess you can always order a case on their special order form if it's something you really want, but I've never tried that.

I'm annoyed that even though the warehouse is right here in Raleigh, many of the local stores have crappy selection. I don't even understand why the selection varies between stores, especially within a county, since they are all state run.

Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#45

Post by taurath »

tptacek wrote: post #24
taurath wrote: post #23

Some of the most lovely bourbons I’ve had recently are port barrel aged, so this isn’t a surprise!

Which one? The only wine barrel bourbon I've had is High West's Midwinter. I'd be interested in other ones. Kilchoman's port cask Scotch is really amazing.

Local one in the Pacific Northwest - Cadee distillery Cascadia

Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#46

Post by HillaryBriss »

tptacek wrote: post #33
HillaryBriss wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Scotland, ex bourbon barrels go through a process of "rejuvenation" to expose flavor bearing compounds still found deeper in the wood: "... why not scrape out the inside of the cask and toast it again? After toasting the cask is charred anew, and voilà: You have a new, activated cask. ... A bourbon cask, used for 2 to 4 years in the USA, can be used for another 30 years in Scotland." https://www.whisky.com/informa…

Right, the casks still work, but it's not like aging scotch in William Larue Weller casks works any better than Jim Beam casks. It's just a source of oak.

yeah. my point was not that bourbon oozes out the pores of the reused barrel.

my point is that if the oak is the same species as that used in bourbon barrels, and if the barrel is charred in a manner similar to a bourbon barrel then the whisky flavor has a greater tendency toward bourbon-like flavor than if sherry or wine barrels or plain, un-charred oak barrels were used.

bourbon barrel availability to scotch producers increased significantly after 1935 when US federal law required single use bourbon barrels, and, more so later in the 20th century when the supply of Spanish sherry barrels dwindled.

Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#47

Post by voltagex_ »

wheels wrote: post #32
vowelless wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aberlour A’bunadh Where are you getting cheap Aberlour A'bunadh?? It's my favorite scotch but I cannot find it for less than 2 to 3 times the price of Macallan 12. Also, Glenmorangie is a delicious sherry scotch. Tastes a lot like Macallan and usually cheaper. > The big trend in Scotch is towards “no age statement” (NAS) bottlings, because Scotland is not keeping up with resurgent global demand. NAS bottles are you…

Glenmorangie isn't sherried unless you get the "La Santa" version, which I don't think is as good as the original, and then it's only finished for two years in sherry casks after the usual maturation in bourbon casks. Aberlour A'bunadh is great, as noted, as is Glendrodach, but they've run out of 15 year old casks, and the 18 isn't enough better to justify the price hike. Another favorite is the Bunnahabhain 18, a no…

Australian prices:

Aberlour A'bunadh $140 (Dan Murphy's, so pretty much everywhere)

Bunnahabhain 18 $199.00 (Nicks, mail order only)

Glenmorangie Original $80 (Dan Murphy)

It's actually not that much higher that US prices, which is surprising

Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#48

Post by voltagex_ »

tptacek wrote: post #22
HillaryBriss wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To a first approximation, everything not aged in Sherry butts has basically always been aged in ex bourbon casks ... What historical evidence supports the notion that rum and brandy were, even to a first approximation, basically always aged in ex bourbon casks?

Scotch. All the scotches. I'm not talking about rum and brandy (I am however at this minute getting tipsy on a pretty amazing Plantation rum aged in cognac barrels, so I guess I could nerd out on rum a bit too --- though all I know about rum is "buy the Plantation rums that are aged in interesting barrels").

Which Plantation rum?

Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#49

Post by peterwwillis »

wheels wrote: post #35
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird. I just paid mid-60s for a bottle, from Binnys, off Instacart no less, but yeah the price right now is just shy of $90. It’s not worth $90. You can get a Dronach for that much. A good relatively inexpensive sherry Speyside is Dailuane (in my experience only the cheap Dailuanes are good).

Whisky became hip in the last 5-ish years and all of the stuff I used to recommend to people has gotten too expensive. I've expanded significantly towards other matured spirits where the prices haven't gotten as redonkulous yet: rum, brandy, and even some good tequila.

Weird side effect: I found Scottish whiskeys were cheaper in Japan for the past 5 years compared to the US. That and buying in a spirit's native country saves me a chunk of change. I'm almost out of good rum, so I might need to plan my next vacation to the Caribbean..

Re: How Sherry Became the Secret to Great Scotch

#50

Post by convolvatron »

tptacek wrote: post #6

Sherry is the reason people like Macallan, but: * lots of Scotch has no sherry, and, particularly, the smokey peaty Islays tend not to be sherried at all. Sherried Scotch is a distinctive style, mostly centered in Speyside. * There are better, cheaper sherry bomb whiskies than Macallan; try Aberlour A’bunadh (cheap, excellent) and Glendronach (still substantially cheaper than Macallan, and I think much better). The b…

glenrothes used to be a pretty cheap and easy to drink for people who haven't done alot of scotch. not much complexity.
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