Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics? • Hacker News Board

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#171

Post by nfoz » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:32 PM UTC

blubb-fish wrote: post #156

nfoz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's a complex philosophical question without a clear answer. Where I live (downtown of big city) there are a lot of people visibly addicted to drugs, on the streets, generally living lives that appear tragic to themselves and others. We can say "punishment is due" for each offense they take (theft, violence, public nudity, etc.), but it's probably better to describe those as symptoms of a drug addiction. "Pun…

But with this approach to train adults to not take responsibility. I am all for placing full responsibility on every adult - one has to learn to deal with this of course and the current state of society is opposing it. Otherwise people couldn't sue manufacturers for having put their pets into microwave ovens or for getting cancer from smoking. I know this will cause colateral damage from people doing stupid or bad th…

Does the idea of "training adults to not take responsibility" have merit? It sounds like naive pop psychology.

We could remove all guard-rails (literal and figurative) from society. I guess you could say I'd be more "responsible" for staying alive under this scenario. But why is that good? It's just more inefficient and unpleasant for everyone to have to carefully check their every move in case something's trying to scam or possess them. The more you're tested, the more likely you'll fail. When instead we can just generally agree, via democratic means, to fix those systemic problems across-the-board. Then we can get on to solving better problems.

My own pop psych: you don't "conquer" temptation, so much as it wears at you. And it wears at some members of your community more than others. You solve it by removing the temptation (or yourself from it), not by facing it over and over.

As adults we should take responsibility for our community by fixing what ails us. I will gladly accept limitations on my own entertainment if it helps my neighbour through a difficult struggle.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#172

Post by TheCoelacanth » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

nfoz wrote: post #138

blubb-fish wrote: post #127

For me this is a simple philosophical question. An adult should be allowed to do whatever s/he likes as long as it is not harming others. If harm to others is done - even under the influence - then punishment is due. But as long as somebody just does something in private - it must be okay. I have plenty of experience with psychedlics - be it LSD, Psilocibin, DMT or 4-ACO-DMT. I know from own experience that a bad tri…

For me it's a complex philosophical question without a clear answer. Where I live (downtown of big city) there are a lot of people visibly addicted to drugs, on the streets, generally living lives that appear tragic to themselves and others. We can say "punishment is due" for each offense they take (theft, violence, public nudity, etc.), but it's probably better to describe those as symptoms of a drug addiction. "Pun…

What we should do for people who are addicted to drugs is unclear. What we should not do to people who are addicted to drugs is clear and that is to put them in prison.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#173

Post by blubb-fish » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

nfoz wrote: post #171

blubb-fish wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But with this approach to train adults to not take responsibility. I am all for placing full responsibility on every adult - one has to learn to deal with this of course and the current state of society is opposing it. Otherwise people couldn't sue manufacturers for having put their pets into microwave ovens or for getting cancer from smoking. I know this will cause colateral damage from people doing stupid or bad th…

Does the idea of "training adults to not take responsibility" have merit? It sounds like naive pop psychology. We could remove all guard-rails (literal and figurative) from society. I guess you could say I'd be more "responsible" for staying alive under this scenario. But why is that good? It's just more inefficient and unpleasant for everyone to have to carefully check their every move in case something's trying to…

well - with more responsibility the force of natural selection will become more prominent - I don't think that is a bad thing.

and the idea of recent generations having to face less and less responsibility is not just pop psychology. I think it is quite obvious with parents picking up their children at school (helicopter parenting) despite public transportation being more comfortable and crime rates being lower than in the past.

> And it wears at some members of your community more than others.

Those may seek help or suffer - their choice.

> As adults we should take responsibility for our community by fixing what ails us.

And this is not being done by prohibiting drugs but by working on the reasons why people start to abuse drugs.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#174

Post by blubb-fish » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #172

nfoz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's a complex philosophical question without a clear answer. Where I live (downtown of big city) there are a lot of people visibly addicted to drugs, on the streets, generally living lives that appear tragic to themselves and others. We can say "punishment is due" for each offense they take (theft, violence, public nudity, etc.), but it's probably better to describe those as symptoms of a drug addiction. "Pun…

What we should do for people who are addicted to drugs is unclear. What we should not do to people who are addicted to drugs is clear and that is to put them in prison.

People become addicted for psychological reasons and because of hopelessness. Those reasons need to be addressed by counseling.

Of course when talking about a society dealing with drugs in a liberal fashion one quickly ends up imagining utopias where people don't have reasons to escape their sad reality. Thinking about better worlds is not a bad thing at all - it's just painful realizing how faaaaar away we are from it.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#175

Post by ryanmercer » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

AstralStorm wrote: post #154

ryanmercer wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well duh obviously everyone that orders a still is going to use it in their living room as an art installation.

The presumption is that they have the permit. Unlike firearms, the seller does not have to verify it.

You don't need a permit to buy a firearm unless it is something that is NFA and then you just need to go through the appropriate tax stamp process which is effectively a permit for that specific firearm/destructive device/accessory.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#176

Post by kjgkjhfkjf » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

To the extent that drug users are burdens on society, drug use should be regulated.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#177

Post by sonnyblarney » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

kimdotcom wrote: post #112

sonnyblarney wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things." There are a lot of reasons. The people on HN and their social circles are waaay on the high end of conscientiousness. They have nary any risk from something like LSD for the most part. But - wide open and fairly unregulated use? Available at the corner store? So many types will try it, more than a few times. Younger kids will definite…

Just curious, how do you know your neighbors are smoking crack? Is it making a come-back?

I live in a gentrifying neighbourhood in Montreal and crack is a thing.

The semi-homeless people who crash at the clinic in front of me are highly animated, talking to themselves loudly etc. for a few days after the provincial welfare cheques go out. Then it's all quiet.

It's the only neighbourhood in North America, where regular looking, polite folks come up asking for 'spare change' all the time.

Also - crack has a specific odour.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#178

Post by sonnyblarney » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #34

xg15 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main issue with these "laws" is that they are speculative Sorry to pull that quote out of context, but this is just peak HN. It's beautiful. > Psychedelics have been available and used throughout history with few problems in ritual settings So we should only allow them in ritual settings then? > The real reason psychedelics were banned in the US is to have a reason to jail politically inconvenient people in Vie…

In what way are they anything other than speculative? Drug laws are certainly not evidence based (in most places). They are based on ideologically driven speculation about the imagined consequences of legalisation.

"Drug laws are certainly not evidence based (in most places)"

They are definitely evidenced based.

We don't have to have a complete scientific run-down of opioids or THC to know their general effects on people.

We've decided that these - among many, many other substances are not for the common good - and that's why they're banned.

We don't ban alcohol for cultural and historical reasons, though it's banned in many places in addition to the fact that alcoholism was a massive social problem for a long time.

There's no 'new science' in dope that has caused us to change our laws either, just a different view towards it, and probably a better common understanding of it.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#179

Post by OnlyRepliesToBS » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #20

white-flame wrote: post #15

The headline's question should really be reframed to question the validity of these restrictions in the first place. I'm not a user of any of these sorts of substances, nor condone them, but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things. Sure, driving under the influence should be policed as a safety hazard, showing up to work out of your gourd should still get you fired, etc. But there…

"but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things." There are a lot of reasons. The people on HN and their social circles are waaay on the high end of conscientiousness. They have nary any risk from something like LSD for the most part. But - wide open and fairly unregulated use? Available at the corner store? So many types will try it, more than a few times. Younger kids will definite…

You're not even wrong.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#180

Post by ada1981 » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

1000units wrote: post #136

ada1981 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought I went insane from Psychedelics for about a decade. Then I did them again in a therapeutic setting and realized I hadn’t a lot of unprocessed trauma that was causing the psychosis, depression, mania, etc. A few theraptic sessions later, no longer diagnosable as schizophrenic, Biploar and no more suicidal ideation, anxiety, panic attacks, etc. I’m one story, but my research indicates this is a viable path an…

I'm not sure I understand. You had a psychologist retract schizophrenia and BPD diagnoses? Or do you just mean after taking LSD again you no longer feel like you suffer from those conditions?

The latter.

About 20 years ago I was diagnosed schizophrenic after driving my car into the back of a semi in an attempt to teleport to visit my girlfriend. (Sober)

More recently (5 years ago) I was diagnosed with BPD after being suicidal on the Golden Gate Bridge.

I spent my twenties in a very visionary / mystic / mythic (schizophrenic) state of Conciousness and just didn’t discuss it for fear of being medicated.

A few years ago a found relief trough a combination of MDMA, Mushrooms, NARM Therapy, Breathwork and Relationship as a Path.

I no longer suffer the symptoms, Am no longer diagnosable, and my subjective experience was one of going into deep repressed traumas (birth, circumsicion, parents divorce, abusive step dad, etc) and feeling and releasing them.

I’ve had a psychiatrists, Ivy League hospitals, and film makers approach me for insights into how my approach might help others.

I’m aware I am an N of one, but I tempered my intuition and insights with research (when I was suicidal I was also helping Peter Theil with a private medical research startup and had access to some great minds).

Here is a podcast I did recently with more detail if it is interesting to you:

https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-48-anthony-adams/

(I’m also aware that the standard advice is to avoid psychedelics if you have these conditions — for myself, I took the risk as my understanding of mental illness shifted and I was interested in going more deeply into the uncomfortable states in order to heal. For me it paid off, and hopefully it will for others as I work with researchers to expand our understanding of if my results can be replicated — so far it seems they can, with the right Support.)