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‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

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Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#91
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "expectations have been met", did you expect the game to take this long to develop? Looking at the original kickstarter from 2012 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen?ref=na... it looks like the original ship date was Nov 2014, so it seems that at least some people's expectations aren't likely to have been met.

I knew when I got involved I was putting money into a black box. I was (and still am) enthralled with the idea Chris Roberts has presented. When I was able to jump into a ship and play Area Commander with other People, I felt like what I signed up for was delivered. But, I'm excited with what else is coming. And honestly, I'm glad. If they had just stuck to the initial scope, it would be less exciting. I'd rather dre…

Enjoyment is always subjective and if you feel that you've got appropriate levels of enjoyment for the money you've spent then it obviously works for you.

Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#92

He lost because of a forced arbitration clause. This massive privatization of justice where any boilerplate service or product now comes with forced arbitration is making my blood boil. The justice system should always be an option when arbitration fails, and arbitration should take no more than a reasonable time to fail (say, two weeks for this $5000 amount). The whole point of a small claims court is to handle such…

But arbitration didn't fail here. He never tried it in the first place.

Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#93
post #83

While i regularly throw $20-$50 into game kickstarters, I stayed away from both Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous when I saw how hyped they were. Nothing good was going to come out of that. Personal statistics: 19 kickstarters backed, got a finished product on 9 of them so far, 2 more have builds that show everything is on track. Everything I got was acceptable, with at least 7 being good or above. Also, ALL of them w…

Elite Dangerous did turn out a very successful game though.

Not only successful but also great in terms of quality and polish - iirc they got awards for their great sound design. I've also tried it in VR and it's a killer app for that platform, especially with a joystick setup.

Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#94

I'm a backer and I have no problem with this. Many AAA titles take a decade or more from start to finish. For example, between Diablo 2 and 3. I want the best space sim and I like what RSI is doing. I'm not holding my breath, just living my life and when the game is finished I will be happy to play it. Although, I also did not drop 5 grand on this game.

Most AAA do a game in 2-3years, a decade is not the norm, and for game that took 10years it's not a team that work on that for that long but just a couple of people.

Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#95

It isnt freature creep. Being crowd-funded is their business model. New features, new hype, means new money. They cannot ever finish because then it all stops. The game will only be released once the cowdfumding well runs dry. Therefore, the best way to get the eventual game is to stop supporting it with money. They lost me when they hired gillian anderson. I want to believe, but that was jumping a shark too far.

I'll be honest in that I've not followed development at all but hearing they have hired an actress just leads me to assume she is voicing/mocaping a character in the SP portion of the game. How is that any different from CoD hiring Kevin Spacey or Mark Hamil in Wing Commander? Let alone jumping the shark.

Because crowdfunded developers running on tight budgets generally don't throw money at stars. It might be a good business investment for a movie or television show, but most early supporters would rather the game be out sooner with B or C-list talent. Star power is icing a cake that isn't yet baked.

Particular to Star Citizen, fans remember well the use of Mark Hamill in one of the Wing Commander games, the one that came spread across six cd-roms. It was an interesting cross-media experiment but the industry took from that incident that gamers want a game, not cutscenes.

There is also great danger in hiring a star for something that will not come out until many years later. She may not be as famous in 2-5 (10?) years when the game actually arrives. She could be involved in a scandal. She could star in a series of flops. She could simply retire. Then the extra money spent on her will have been wasted. It is very odd decision to pay a premium for her over literally hundreds of equally capable but less-famous actors.

Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#96

I'm a backer and I have no problem with this. Many AAA titles take a decade or more from start to finish. For example, between Diablo 2 and 3. I want the best space sim and I like what RSI is doing. I'm not holding my breath, just living my life and when the game is finished I will be happy to play it. Although, I also did not drop 5 grand on this game.

Battletech The Game went to kick starter to get additional funds to deliver their game and it pretty much ranks up there as a AAA title. They went on to get picked up by Paradox Games who will give the access to resources they did not have before.

Having watched Star Citizen for years it is just obvious this whole process suffers from feature creep. They went in with one game and now have what? three?

It reminds me of Battle Cruiser 3000AD at this point, though to be fair they have delivered more content but at the same time not when or what people who got into it expected

Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#97

I'm a backer and I have no problem with this. Many AAA titles take a decade or more from start to finish. For example, between Diablo 2 and 3. I want the best space sim and I like what RSI is doing. I'm not holding my breath, just living my life and when the game is finished I will be happy to play it. Although, I also did not drop 5 grand on this game.

Except the existence of D3 wasn't even announced until 2008, releasing four years later - and they didn't rely on the donations of backers, nor did they promise it'd be out in 2-3 years or bolt on feature after feature (and a FPS), nor did they push the limits of graphics cards and whatnot and design it for two generations over.

I could go on, not sure though, I think it's a moot comparison.

Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#98

I'm a backer and I have no problem with this. Many AAA titles take a decade or more from start to finish. For example, between Diablo 2 and 3. I want the best space sim and I like what RSI is doing. I'm not holding my breath, just living my life and when the game is finished I will be happy to play it. Although, I also did not drop 5 grand on this game.

Battletech The Game went to kick starter to get additional funds to deliver their game and it pretty much ranks up there as a AAA title. They went on to get picked up by Paradox Games who will give the access to resources they did not have before. Having watched Star Citizen for years it is just obvious this whole process suffers from feature creep. They went in with one game and now have what? three? It reminds me o…

Three tech demoes and a team making advertising videos for ships you can buy for a premium which you can play in a video game that still doesn't exist yet.

Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#99
post #41
post #13

Crowdfunding can clearly serve a useful role as part of the modern mix of societal funding sources, but it's definitely still more wild west when it comes to uniformity of terms and regulations. It's not "investing" in the classic sense but it's also certainly not "donating" either, nor is it a preorder. "Backing" involves its own set of concerns and scale and rules should reflect that, and by design it primarily inv…

>Crowdfunding can clearly serve a useful role as part of the modern mix of societal funding sources, but it's definitely still more wild west when it comes to uniformity of terms and regulations. It's not "investing" in the classic sense but it's also certainly not "donating" either, nor is it a preorder. Furthermore kickstarting also has these secondary effects of promotion and market research. If this thing existed…

>As I recall, kickstarter originally had a requirement of giving money back if you couldn't deliver--which was never very practical. Getting money from a stone sort of thing.

Of course that can be a requirement, and you've given a great example of financial confusion that I've seen come up a lot in crowdfunding discussions: "requirement" in no way means "assurance". The actual final outcome comes out of the interaction of various pieces of law with different goals and the priorities established in the financial setup. It's like any debt, it's "legally required" to be paid back to the extent allowed under law, but that doesn't mean it will be, defaults happen. If a debt is defaulted on then what process happens next is very important to a functional economy. So it's fine to say "you are required to do x," what that translates to though is more "if you can do x, then you must do x", and by default it leaves what happens "if you can't" undefined (or here falling back to the generic overall processes, which weren't made with this instance specifically in mind of course).

In turn that's why it's not a "donation", they do in fact have performance requirements. They could not for example finish the project, reaching all milestones, and then suddenly say "nah actually we're not going to give backers anything we said we would after all." Or if they offered alpha access for a given price, and someone paid that, then with the alpha out that person should be offered access. They can't just go use the funds for any random thing, and if they can deliver they need to do so. But that they're "required to do so" doesn't mean they can't fail. They aren't allowed to pierce the veil, but there is still management discretion. Etc.

But it's also not a "preorder" because nothing exists. "Preordering" really does have legal requirements of its own in many jurisdictions, such as not being allowed to hold money or a reservation for money even more then a short period of time without explicit permission for extension (that must be repeated every additional period), or not being able to collect at all before shipping.

So the real missing piece I think is better defining the failure process and making it give better results for the backer population. What say do backers have in a project going outside its proposed bounds to a great degree? In a failure, what place in line do backers have vs any other creditors? What are they entitled to beyond any division of pure asset liquidation?

Re: ‘Star Citizen’ Court Case Reveals the Messy Reality of Crowdfunding a $200M Game

#100

He lost because of a forced arbitration clause. This massive privatization of justice where any boilerplate service or product now comes with forced arbitration is making my blood boil. The justice system should always be an option when arbitration fails, and arbitration should take no more than a reasonable time to fail (say, two weeks for this $5000 amount). The whole point of a small claims court is to handle such…

I can't get phone or Internet in my area without some form of forced arbitration.....if I don't give up my rights to the court system for those services, I just don't get them.

There is no option to simply not participate, it is absurd.

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