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European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

europa.eu

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Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#331

Post by izacus »

appleflaxen wrote: post #256

there is a lot of criticism of the EC by the HN community, but I am extremely happy to have some push-back against the oligopoly of Apple, Google, etc. let's do apple, facebook, and amazon next. now if we could only convince comcast to provide services to the EU.... having a small set of companies controlling everything harms all consumers.

This literally strengthens Apple because they'll keep shipping services with integrated features (banning competition) while Android devices will be banned from providing the same integrated experience.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#332

Post by anilakar »

endorphone wrote: post #286

This is a dangerous ruling that pushes the world further into the potential for trade wars by proxy. Contrary to numerous posts- -no, the law isn't "clear". This is an incredibly nuanced situation, and the notion that Google was just overtly flouting (ed: thx sjcsjc) the law is outright nonsense. Google has a huge litany of bad practices (I personally recently switched my daily driver to an iPhone for that reason), b…

Is this yet another case of trying to apply an American interpretation to a European law? I thought we all had a similar discussion when GDPR came into effect.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#333

Post by typon »

endorphone wrote: post #320
typon wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there car dealers trying to offer a la carte car + entertainment system packages but are being shut down by BMW?

Of course there aren't because BMW absolutely squashed the possibility of that at the outset. But Google, apparently, deserves a $5B fine because they made a mistake of powering AOSP phones, the Amazon products, countless variations in China, set top boxes, etc. It is incredible seeing Google being seriously attacked on here for have an open source path as well. I feel like this is some sort of alternative universe.

If Google had gone the open source route out of the goodness of their hearts, you'd have an argument. Google went the open source route to bootstrap on top of a well known operating system (Linux), as well as to accelerate adoption and catch up to Apple as fast as they could. Then once they got market dominance, they abused their position to stifle competition.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#334

Post by makomk »

lucb1e wrote: post #228
theBobBob wrote: post #103

Very slightly off topic but I actually think how Android handles default apps is the best of both worlds. It comes with very very good default Google Apps that work well together but it is very easy to switch out whatever you want for an alternative. How iOS handles it is the opposite. For their default apps they either straight out not allow competitors, severely limit what their competitors or (if I remember correc…

> but it is very easy to switch out whatever you want for an alternative Do tell how one could switch out the map from Google Maps to anything else (Bing, OpenStreetMap, whatever). Or how I could get rid of Google+ without needing to wipe my device or use a zero-day. Or perhaps how I could get apk files from their repository without agreeing to the Google TOS and privacy policy, and without using some hacky system li…

You switch out the map app like this, same way you change the default app for anything else: https://360.here.com/2015/01/29/swap-google-maps-here-androi... (The instructions for switching to, say, Google's own Waze app are pretty much the same too.) This is as I understand it not possible on Apple's iOS; even if you install a third-party mapping application, everything else on the system which opens up a map will still use Apple's map.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#335

Post by mtgx »

endorphone wrote: post #305
Dayshine wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's read the law: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... >Article 102 >Any abuse by one or more undertakings of a dominant position within the internal market or in a substantial part of it shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market in so far as it may affect trade between Member States. >Such abuse may, in particular, consist in: >b) limiting production, markets or techni…

How is that not clearly breaching d? They're a part of the same suite of apps that provide the "Android experience" (Google experience, whatever -- the thing that most consumers think of when they consider Android). They manifestly have a profound connection with each other. And let's be clear here lest there be any confusion -- zero customers want a vendor to do anything different, and the only reason some vendors w…

> They're a part of the same suite of apps that provide the "Android experience"

Offering the open source Gallery app is the "Android experience". Offering Google Photos is not the Android experience, but the "Google experience". It's different.

> zero customers want a vendor to do anything different

Citation needed. I mean I don't want the vendors to add bloatware to a smartphone, just like I don't want Google to add bloatware (like the search bar or the News app). But that doesn't mean I wouldn't like actually innovative features. And even if I as a "stock Android" fan, that doesn't mean everyone is.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#336

Post by blub »

endorphone wrote: post #305
Dayshine wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's read the law: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... >Article 102 >Any abuse by one or more undertakings of a dominant position within the internal market or in a substantial part of it shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market in so far as it may affect trade between Member States. >Such abuse may, in particular, consist in: >b) limiting production, markets or techni…

How is that not clearly breaching d? They're a part of the same suite of apps that provide the "Android experience" (Google experience, whatever -- the thing that most consumers think of when they consider Android). They manifestly have a profound connection with each other. And let's be clear here lest there be any confusion -- zero customers want a vendor to do anything different, and the only reason some vendors w…

"They're a part of the same suite of apps that provide the "Android experience". They manifestly have a profound connection with each other."

Google has worked very hard to integrate their app suite at such a deep level with Android to the point that they can steer what can be done with the OS just by using that one lever.

Anyone paying attention in the past decade will remember plenty of complaints about the GApps infesting Android.

But yes, if just looks at the situation as it is today, they could be excused for thinking that everything is normal.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#337

Post by cageface »

ahartmetz wrote: post #301
cageface wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed my point. Effectively there is more than one kind of monopoly and Apple has just as much control over the mobile space as Google does and abuses it in their own way by pushing their browser, disallowing third party app stores and alternative default mail, maps, etc. Expect to see more of this as Apple starts to rely more and more on services revenue. Apple currently pulls in an astonishing 87% of mobile pr…

Because they don't control the devices of 87% of users. Their profits are good for them and all, but have no direct bearing on their ability to exert unfair influence, especially in other markets (e.g. search engines).

They have plenty of influence for developers, which means they have influence for consumers. They have a huge say in what apps and websites get built and how because everybody has to play by their rules to get on their lucrative platform. Do you think you could launch a successful search engine today that wasn't available on iOS?

Take Safari as a case in point. Apple doesn't allow other browsers on their platform which means webdevs have been limited to the parts of the web stack that Apple supports. Which, until recently, was falling pretty far behind the state of the art.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#338

Post by SparklingCotton »

frockington wrote: post #307
detaro wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what data do you base your judgement that GDPR means the EU "hands out fines like candy"?

The article this post links to would point to the trigger happy fine nature of the EU when it comes to American technology

Amazing how your single data point lead you to that conclusion..

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#339

Post by mrweasel »

VikingCoder wrote: post #265
hrktb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better source: > The European Commission has accused Google of abusing its Android market dominance by bundling its search engine and Chrome apps into the operating system. Google has also allegedly blocked phone makers from creating devices that run forked versions of Android. https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17580694/google-android-e... > How is it any different Apple doesn’t have a dominent search engine to pu…

Oh, Apple is a brutal dictatorship that doesn't share anything? That's fine. Oh, Google, you're willing to share almost everything with anyone for free, but you want to put terms on that? Hey, here's a giant fine. I just don't understand the logic of this at all.

The logic is that you're not allowed to use your position in one marked to gain influence in another.

Google knows that most manufacturer needs their devices to ship with the Play Store, because that's where the apps are and smartphone without apps are useless. But they use the Play Store as leverage, forcing manufactures to also ship Chrome, rather than Opera, Firefox or their own browser and that's the bit that is illegal.

Imagine that Apple forced telcos to block Spotify, to force users to iTunes, and if they didn't then no iPhones on that carriers network.

That being said I don't think Google is using the Play Store to force installations of Chrome or the Google search app, that's just weird. People would install Chrome anyway and they already dominate search, so why bother. I think the reason is technical, but the end result is still illegal.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#340

Post by BlackFly »

ekianjo wrote: post #15
rjvbk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple does not have a monopoly dominant position. In my country I think they are like 10% of the market. You can't abuse your dominant position if you don't have one.

Android does not have a monopoly either. You can buy an iPhone.

There is an excellent quote from the actual link:

> Nevertheless, the Commission investigated to what extent competition for end users (downstream), in particular between Apple and Android devices, could indirectly constrain Google's market power for the licensing of Android to device manufacturers (upstream). The Commission found that this competition does not sufficiently constrain Google upstream for a number of reasons, including:

They are not punished for their behavior in the downstream market (in which they barely participate). They are punished for their behavior in the upstream market. We consumers do not participate in the upstream market.

Nevertheless, the EU commission considered whether the lack of a monopoly in the downstream market ameliorated the monopoly effects in the upstream market and found it did not.

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