European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case • Hacker News Board

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#111

Post by sveme » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:12 AM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #60

minxomat wrote: post #8

To put that into context: > Despite being a record fine, Alphabet generated about the same amount of money every 16 days in 2017, based on the company’s reported annual revenue of $110.9 billion for the year.

To put it in a slightly different context, this is more money than the annual contributions of quite a few EU member states. Google is now a bigger contributor to the EU budget than Belgium, the Netherlands or Ireland. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/html/budgetataglance/... Fines paid to the EU go straight into its own general budget. Combined with the nature of the EU Commission as judge, jury and executione…

> EU Commission as judge, jury and executioner

The executive fines someone (like you are fined for violating parking regulations), then you can appeal that fine in court, in this case most likely the ECJ.

Would you argue that it's wrong to address a coporation's wrongdoings? EU companies are fined regularly as well, might not create such an upheaval in the US media, though.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#112

Post by laumars » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:13 AM UTC

vivan wrote: post #32

ar0 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the European Commission alleges that Android has an 80% market share in Europe: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1492_en.htm (fifth paragraph) But for this case, they are using a definition that makes Android even more dominant: they allege that Google restricts device manufacturers' freedoms. And from a device manufacturer point of view, Android has a 90+% market share of "licensable smart mobile ope…

That is fair enough - though is there really any competition in that space? Even if Google did nothing, I imagine most manufacturers would continue using Android as there isn't much choice. I don't actually know any mobile OS other than iOS and Android variants. Blackberry, Nokia (?) and Windows for mobile are all pretty much dead at this point.

There used to be a plethora of mobile platforms:

  * Symbian
  * Palm webOS
  * Mozilla (I think that was also called WebOS?)
  * Jola
  * Some blackberry thing based on QNX that "supported" Android apps
  * Tizan
  * Windows Phone
  * Ubuntu Phone

Plus a bunch of independent / hobby(?) ones that never really took off, eg the Inferno port

These days it feels like most people have given up trying to compete against Apple and Google.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#113

Post by heracles » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:13 AM UTC

cncrnd wrote: post #81

This line in the article got to me, "The fine would top the EU’s €2.4 billion antitrust decision against Google just over a year ago." It looks like the EU has created a piggy bank with these regulations on hostage tech corporations. I wonder how much of the large fines is attributed to prosecutors or politicians trying to make a name for themselves. Anyone know how often these record fines hold up on appeal? Edit: W…

Regarding "personal branding": most people in the EU doesn't even know the name of the 1-3 top ranking officials in the EU. So while there might be all kinds of personal reasons for this (I can't possibly rule that out), public appeal as I perceive it from the USA it not a factor AT ALL.

Most members in the EU also completely lacks the "personal branding" of judges, they usually aren't elected and politics and law intertwine less so in EU than in USA (again, as I understand USA).

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#114

Post by cncrnd » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:14 AM UTC

Radle wrote: post #88

cncrnd wrote: post #81

This line in the article got to me, "The fine would top the EU’s €2.4 billion antitrust decision against Google just over a year ago." It looks like the EU has created a piggy bank with these regulations on hostage tech corporations. I wonder how much of the large fines is attributed to prosecutors or politicians trying to make a name for themselves. Anyone know how often these record fines hold up on appeal? Edit: W…

"Piggy bank", there is a full process duo law involved. It's not like people come up with "hey we need money, let's fine google". Why would you claim something like that without providing any evidence that this is actually the case?

I am not claiming that the law was unjustly carried out. Google must have had the chance to plead their case.

The question is rather, "Should this law exist?" The answer is no. A law which allows this magnitude of a fine for the behavior described is ridiculous.

These are not laws sent down by god. Some elected or not elected officials sat down and decided on some stuff - and they can make mistakes. Have you seen the US congress questioning Zuckerberg and the elementary level of the questions asked? These are the EU analogs, making laws (probably not as incompetent though).

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#115

Post by dvfjsdhgfv » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:15 AM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #94

rusk wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That first claim is clearly wrong though. No it isn't. But your attempt at refutation is. > Android doesn't have a monopoly. Apple does fine in Europe Apple has its segment. Android is pretty much everything else. It is "dominant" in the market. > Secondly, there are device makers that didn't cut a deal with Google The complaint relates specifically to access to google play services.

But Android isn't a phone maker. It's a component that is usually customised. Now go look at who are making phones on this base: Samsung is the most popular but it doesn't have a monopoly. Is the EU going to fine ARM next for having a monopoly on mobile CPUs?

If they abuse their position e.g. by forcing device makers to sign contracts preventing them from using RISC-V etc., then yes, EU might get interested in that, too.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#116

Post by oblio » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:15 AM UTC

naturalgradient wrote: post #109

heracles wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most (all?) other fields of law you are expected to abide by the rules as they are stated, or risk being punished by the legislative powers. That's not a vendetta, that's law as it is most commonly practiced. I don't see why EU should "work with google" to make them follow regulations (EDIT: beyond the threat of punishment).

The problem is that antitrust laws like these are very selectively enforced. Selection and prosecution of these cases is hence inherently political as these are non-standardized arguments or verdicts.

Why selectively? It's basically the same principle as: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp_v_Commission

Who else do you think they should pursue instead?

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#117

Post by repolfx » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:16 AM UTC

claudius wrote: post #108

repolfx wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Android isn't a phone maker. It's a component that is usually customised. Now go look at who are making phones on this base: Samsung is the most popular but it doesn't have a monopoly. Is the EU going to fine ARM next for having a monopoly on mobile CPUs?

> Is the EU going to fine ARM next for having a monopoly on mobile CPUs? Having a monopoly or being in a dominant position is not the problem. If ARM starts a pizza business and requires everyone who wants to buy mobile CPUs to also order pizzas exclusively from them, then this would be an equally-fineable abuse of a dominant market position and the EU would almost certainly step in. As it stands, ARM doesn’t force o…

You can use Android and make a phone that searches Bing and uses your own app store. Look at how Amazon did it.

Most phone makers don't because customers prefer the Google services, but that's not Google's fault. They have provided OEMs with options - options they didn't need to give anyone, apparently, given that non-licensable operating systems like iOS aren't being whacked the same way.

The most Google can do is give away their OS as open source and let people do what they want with it. If they then sell a bundle of extra proprietary stuff on top, stuff that customers want, that can't possibly be more problematic than making everything proprietary.

After all, Apple doesn't even let third party devs from the app store take over the default mapping app: map links always open in Apple Maps regardless of user preference. For the longest time they wouldn't even let apps that competed with their own be developed at all. On Android you can replace the dialer and even the home screen.

I do understand why people are defending the EU here: they like its ideology and vision of the future. But trying to claim Android is some sort of market abuse when Apple's own approach apparently isn't just defies basic logic.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#118

Post by blub » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:16 AM UTC

ge0rg wrote: post #77

repolfx wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That first claim is clearly wrong though. Firstly, Android doesn't have a monopoly. Apple does fine in Europe and their devices can be bought everywhere. Secondly, there are device makers that didn't cut a deal with Google, notably the Amazon phones and tablets. They weren't that popular with consumers but that's not Google's fault: it just means consumers highly value the additional services Google provides.

Maybe the problem with the Google deal is that it's exclusive: if you want to make one device that's Google approved and contains the "highly valued" services, you are disallowed by the compliance contract to make other Android devices that are not Google-approved.

Yep, that is a big problem. If company A has launched an official Android device, and company B goes to A and asks them to build a totally unrelated Android-based (but not Android proper) device for them, A is not allowed to do that by Google.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#119

Post by sveme » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:16 AM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #86

shaqbert wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The punishment is not for pursuing an open source distribution model, but by applying undue power in taking back control of the open distribution model.

But Apple hasn't been fined in the same way. So apparently if Google had kept Android proprietary, and made their own hardware, they'd be totally OK, even though there'd only be two phone makers left in the world instead of dozens like there is now? I'm sorry but this move is garbage. I am British and I'm so glad the UK is leaving this horrible, success hating farce of a union. Google paid billions to develop Android…

Isn't it great that you're heading for a hard brexit, then? If the competition is no level-playing field anymore, how should a local company be successful?

Your points have been addressed above already, if Apple had a dominant market position, the EU would have handled things differently. And Apple has been fined by the EU before as well.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#120

Post by cncrnd » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:17 AM UTC

ckastner wrote: post #99

cncrnd wrote: post #81

This line in the article got to me, "The fine would top the EU’s €2.4 billion antitrust decision against Google just over a year ago." It looks like the EU has created a piggy bank with these regulations on hostage tech corporations. I wonder how much of the large fines is attributed to prosecutors or politicians trying to make a name for themselves. Anyone know how often these record fines hold up on appeal? Edit: W…

> It looks like the EU has created a piggy bank with these regulations on hostage tech corporation Or is it the tech corporations holding consumers hostage, and are regulators trying to fight that.

How is Google holding consumers hostage and not Apple?

Honestly, for the value that Android gives phone manufacturers I am surprised that Google's requirements were so low. Android gave the phone manufacturers a platform and asked for little in return.