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Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#31

Post by [deleted] »

AstralStorm wrote: post #23
sonnyblarney wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things." There are a lot of reasons. The people on HN and their social circles are waaay on the high end of conscientiousness. They have nary any risk from something like LSD for the most part. But - wide open and fairly unregulated use? Available at the corner store? So many types will try it, more than a few times. Younger kids will definite…

You said regulations. Regulations are set after there is a problem. In case of psychedelics, it is a law . If there is a problem, the regulation may be changed, and additional measures taken to get rid of it. The main issue with these laws is that they are speculative. It is actually very likely that nothing would change much if at all, except number of arrests and related costs. Oh and reduced cut for the black mark…

[deleted]

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#32

Post by xg15 »

AstralStorm wrote: post #23
sonnyblarney wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things." There are a lot of reasons. The people on HN and their social circles are waaay on the high end of conscientiousness. They have nary any risk from something like LSD for the most part. But - wide open and fairly unregulated use? Available at the corner store? So many types will try it, more than a few times. Younger kids will definite…

You said regulations. Regulations are set after there is a problem. In case of psychedelics, it is a law . If there is a problem, the regulation may be changed, and additional measures taken to get rid of it. The main issue with these laws is that they are speculative. It is actually very likely that nothing would change much if at all, except number of arrests and related costs. Oh and reduced cut for the black mark…

> The main issue with these "laws" is that they are speculative

Sorry to pull that quote out of context, but this is just peak HN. It's beautiful.

> Psychedelics have been available and used throughout history with few problems in ritual settings

So we should only allow them in ritual settings then?

> The real reason psychedelics were banned in the US is to have a reason to jail politically inconvenient people in Vietnam era and bunch of the world has followed the leader.

I actually agree with that point. However, I don't see how from any of this follows that you should simply allow them without any precautions or any restrictions. Alcohol, tobacco, even coffee is regulated.

As an analogy, we deem it useful that you can purchase a car and drive around with it. Nevertheless, we demand that you get a driver's license first, because there is enough evidence that driving is an often highly counterintuitive activity that can lead to serious damage unless you had proper training first. There is also evidence that you need certain prerequisites even with that training, which is the reason we e.g. wouldn't let a 10 year old drive at all.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#33

Post by 1000units »

taurath wrote: post #5

Schedule 1 is clearly rediculous. I honestly think we need these powerful tools in therapeutic settings especially for addiction which is carving swathes through entire generations. I know multiple people who’ve gotten the ability and drive to grow past alcoholism using them, one can only hope it could be a tool for opiate addiction. Benefits for PTSD and traumatic experiences are practically proven at this point wit…

As a counterpoint, I know multiple people who became insane after trying LSD.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#34

Post by J-dawg »

xg15 wrote: post #32
AstralStorm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said regulations. Regulations are set after there is a problem. In case of psychedelics, it is a law . If there is a problem, the regulation may be changed, and additional measures taken to get rid of it. The main issue with these laws is that they are speculative. It is actually very likely that nothing would change much if at all, except number of arrests and related costs. Oh and reduced cut for the black mark…

> The main issue with these "laws" is that they are speculative Sorry to pull that quote out of context, but this is just peak HN. It's beautiful. > Psychedelics have been available and used throughout history with few problems in ritual settings So we should only allow them in ritual settings then? > The real reason psychedelics were banned in the US is to have a reason to jail politically inconvenient people in Vie…

In what way are they anything other than speculative?

Drug laws are certainly not evidence based (in most places). They are based on ideologically driven speculation about the imagined consequences of legalisation.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#35

Post by tjoff »

andai wrote: post #25
white-flame wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, just look at the positive pressure I mentioned in the end of my post. If we took all the money spent in the police, courts, & prisons for non-violent drug use offenses, and funded totally free to use, no questions asked, walk-in rehab programs, I think that would be both a massive financial and massive cultural benefit. Throw in awareness programs, counseling, poverty-area involvement, etc, and you'd still be w…

Growing up in Holland it was very difficult to get weed as a kid, because everyone just buys it at the store, which doesn't sell to minors. Cocaine, though, offered to me all the time!

Uhm... Same situation with alcohol or tobacco. It is very easy to find young adults or desperate people that will more than gladly buy you some for a share or some cash.

Never seen cocaine though..

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#36

Post by nothrabannosir »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #20
white-flame wrote: post #15

The headline's question should really be reframed to question the validity of these restrictions in the first place. I'm not a user of any of these sorts of substances, nor condone them, but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things. Sure, driving under the influence should be policed as a safety hazard, showing up to work out of your gourd should still get you fired, etc. But there…

"but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things." There are a lot of reasons. The people on HN and their social circles are waaay on the high end of conscientiousness. They have nary any risk from something like LSD for the most part. But - wide open and fairly unregulated use? Available at the corner store? So many types will try it, more than a few times. Younger kids will definite…

> 'Legalizing hard drugs' is kind of a theoretical issue because I think it's hard for us to contemplate what actual widespread use would look like, and also hard for us to consider how regular people behave.

If we keep our focus on psychedelics, as per the article, then: no, not really. The Netherlands have had OTC, no-questions-asked, fully commoditised psychedelics available for decades.

Some got put back on the ban list in dec 2008, others still available as before. This should offer plenty actual, real world, practical data.

No need to guess or contemplate!

> Maybe we might want to do an experiment in a city somewhere to see, but even then, I feel the results would be highly politicized, as they are with 'harm reduction clinics' ... it's hard to get at the truth of it.

How about an entire country, for over two decades? :)

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#37

Post by dtech »

King-Aaron wrote: post #16
scarecrowbob wrote: post #8

" Their safety and efficacy exist only within highly structured specialized treatment settings. In addition, desired outcomes depend upon the production of a temporary but profoundly regressed, disorganized and incapacitated state. Outside of that structure, psychedelics are no less abusable, acutely debilitating and liable to result in psychological damage—sometimes severe and unremitting—than they ever were." This…

Anecdotally, I was at a doof (bush rave) a few years ago, where one of the punters decided to go for a stroll in the middle of the night - head full of acid - and got promptly lost. Police search and rescue were called out, big dollar costs to the state, and while the kid turned up fine in that instance, it's statistically more likely you won't turn up fine in the Australian bush. I certainly feel that there's no abs…

This is a problem with all drugs, especially alcohol. Alcohol has enormous societal costs.

For alcohol with choose taxation and information campaigns. Why should other drugs be handled with (ineffective) criminalization and prosecution?

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#38

Post by rimliu »

viach wrote: post #11

Everything is driven by incentives. Alcohol is cheaper for mass production and guaranteed to have good sales and huge consumer base. A state can't just allow to flow money away by legalizing a new drug which is, probably, mutually exclusive to alcohol. It might be sound cynical, sorry if so, but again, everything is just driven by incentives.

Also, alcohol is trivial to make at home.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#39

Post by hug »

1000units wrote: post #33
taurath wrote: post #5

Schedule 1 is clearly rediculous. I honestly think we need these powerful tools in therapeutic settings especially for addiction which is carving swathes through entire generations. I know multiple people who’ve gotten the ability and drive to grow past alcoholism using them, one can only hope it could be a tool for opiate addiction. Benefits for PTSD and traumatic experiences are practically proven at this point wit…

As a counterpoint, I know multiple people who became insane after trying LSD.

I believe this comment as far as I can metaphorically throw it, which is to say not at all, because you can't throw comments.

This is the "my uncle works at Nintendo" of psychedelics.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#40

Post by Uberphallus »

1000units wrote: post #33
taurath wrote: post #5

Schedule 1 is clearly rediculous. I honestly think we need these powerful tools in therapeutic settings especially for addiction which is carving swathes through entire generations. I know multiple people who’ve gotten the ability and drive to grow past alcoholism using them, one can only hope it could be a tool for opiate addiction. Benefits for PTSD and traumatic experiences are practically proven at this point wit…

As a counterpoint, I know multiple people who became insane after trying LSD.

More often than not, those people have previous mental health problems and LSD throws them over the edge. Sometimes the trigger is a getting your head hit, sometimes receiving a prize, sometimes getting dumped, sometimes after giving birth.

At the end of the day you don't see any correlation between psychedelic usage and mental health issues, same as with the examples I gave. LSD is an emotional earthquake, and should be treated as such.

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