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Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

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Re: Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

#41

I've very disappointed their recovery time is 6 days! Recovery workload should be spread across the whole cluster, so that the recovered data gets distributed evenly. In that case, assuming 10,000 drives, to recover one dead 12TB drive and a recovery rate of even 10 MB/secs per machine, recovery of one drive should be done in under a second. Maybe 10 seconds with some sluggish tail machines. Why do you need it done i…

> you need to be able to move data faster than bad software gets released. And releasing software at a rate of one machine per second still means a release takes 3 hours!

Since others have already demonstrated why the remainder of your comment is overly simplistic, I'll tackle this bit.

Generally, software releases are not rolled out at a constant rate to all machines. A typical thing to do is to release it to staging, then to a "canary" subset of machines (e.g. to 1% or 5% of the machines).. Once all seems well there (e.g. metrics are clean and the canaries have handled X writes, reads, and simulated drive failures), it can be rolled out to a larger subset, and eventually to all machines.

In that way, the release can take whatever total amount of time is desired while still catching any such bugs fairly reliably.

Ideally, at backlblaze they could ensure that their canary instances are "data-redundancy aware" such that even if the 5% they roll to for the canary test all explode, data is still safe.

Regardless, any talk of "recovering data faster than software releases" is completely silly and totally misses the reality of how releases are done, how recovery is done, and what sort of bugs might happen. The math based on faulty assumptions about rate is also pointless.

Re: Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

#42
post #8

It still wouldn't upload my 1TB in back-ups in an entire month. Amazon Drive back-up completed in 3 days. Their pricing is amazing, but saving money on a back-up solution that doesn't seem as good as the other cloud storage providers is a dangerous game.

How do you mean? Is upload too slow?

Re: Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

#43

This analysis is simplistic. Correlated failures are common in drives. That could be a power surge taking out a whole rack, a firmware bug in the drives making them stop working in the year 2038, an errant software engineer reformatting the wrong thing, etc. When calculating your chance of failure, you have to include that, or your result is bogus. Eg. Model A of drive has a failure rate of 1% per year, but when fail…

  Which means every customer suffers data loss 
They suffer partial backup loss.

The customer only suffers data loss if they lost their 'master' copy of the data as well during the outage. Iff they don't have a secondary backup solution.

Re: Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

#44

I've very disappointed their recovery time is 6 days! Recovery workload should be spread across the whole cluster, so that the recovered data gets distributed evenly. In that case, assuming 10,000 drives, to recover one dead 12TB drive and a recovery rate of even 10 MB/secs per machine, recovery of one drive should be done in under a second. Maybe 10 seconds with some sluggish tail machines. Why do you need it done i…

> In that case, assuming 10,000 drives, to recover one dead 12TB drive and a recovery rate of even 10 MB/secs per machine, recovery of one drive should be done in under a second. I want to know where you can find a drive that can write 12TB/sec of data! (In other words, you clearly missed half the problem. To add a new replacement drive, you have to be able to write to it the data from an original drive. Also RS code…

It's assuming that the newly recovered data is spread across free space of the other 10,000 drives, a few megabytes on each.

It will also be recovered by reading the recovery data, which should also be approximately evenly spread across the 10,000 drives.

Re: Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

#45

I've very disappointed their recovery time is 6 days! Recovery workload should be spread across the whole cluster, so that the recovered data gets distributed evenly. In that case, assuming 10,000 drives, to recover one dead 12TB drive and a recovery rate of even 10 MB/secs per machine, recovery of one drive should be done in under a second. Maybe 10 seconds with some sluggish tail machines. Why do you need it done i…

Be careful here, it isn't 6 days until data is recovered it is 6 days until it is fully protected again, there is a big difference. During the 6 days the data would be available it just might have to be reconstructed on the fly by the error correcting rather than read directly. In most systems we assume that "primary traffic" (read/write stuff) is prioritized over "rebuild traffic" which is recovering lost shards. So…

Disclaimer: I'm the author of the blog post. :-)

> During the 6 days the data would be available it just might have to be reconstructed on the fly by the error correcting rather than read directly.

Correct. More specifically, the FIRST time the data is accessed in any 24 hour period it must ALWAYS be reconstructed from the Reed-Solomon encoded parts on 17 other drives on 17 other machines. Any 17 is fine, so it's totally fine if 1 or 2 drives are not available. Once reconstructed it is stored in a set of front end cache computers that have fast SSDs for this purpose.

The second time the same file is accessed in a 24 hour period, it will be fetched out of the SSD cache layer so it won't even hit the spinning drives and won't care if all 20 drives are offline.

> "primary traffic" (read/write stuff) is prioritized over "rebuild traffic"

Yes. Backblaze balances between the two if only one drive has failed, but as a tome (20 drive group spread across 20 computers) becomes more badly degraded Backblaze begins favoring the rebuild. When two drives have failed out of 20, Backblaze stops allowing any writes to that tome because more writes will tend to fail yet another drive. Fewer writes offloads the tome. But we still allow reads. At Backblaze, we have never been 3 drives degraded out of 20 (knock on wood), but if this ever occurs the 20 drive tome is now running without parity -> so in that case we even stop allowing reads AT ALL until we are returned to at least 1 drive of fully redundant parity.

Re: Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

#47
post #8

It still wouldn't upload my 1TB in back-ups in an entire month. Amazon Drive back-up completed in 3 days. Their pricing is amazing, but saving money on a back-up solution that doesn't seem as good as the other cloud storage providers is a dangerous game.

I've found the upload speeds to B2 to be fantastic. Especially if running multiple connections.

Re: Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

#48

> if you store 1 million objects in B2 for 10 million years, you would expect to lose 1 file. Can this be reformulated: you store 10 trln objects (e.g. 100TB of 10 byte records), you lose 1 record each year. Also curious what are the stats from other providers.

> Can this be reformulated Roughly, yes. > Also curious what are the stats from other providers. As to other providers, most are 6+ 9s that I’ve looked at, with many in the 8-9 range. Anything over 8 is (as they admitted) essentially marketing porn and not a useful metric (for reasons they mentioned as well as ones said by other comments here).

Azure:

locally redundant storage: 99.999999999 % (11 9's)

zone redundant storage: 99.9999999999 % (12 9's)

geographically redundant storage: 99.99999999999999 % (16 9's)

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/details/storage/

Re: Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

#49
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In that case, assuming 10,000 drives, to recover one dead 12TB drive and a recovery rate of even 10 MB/secs per machine, recovery of one drive should be done in under a second. I want to know where you can find a drive that can write 12TB/sec of data! (In other words, you clearly missed half the problem. To add a new replacement drive, you have to be able to write to it the data from an original drive. Also RS code…

Additionally, it implies that data needs to be spread across 10,000 drives, which is unrealistic anyway.

Disclaimer: I wrote the blog post. :-)

> spread across 10,000 drives, which is unrealistic

I claim it is also undesirable. Backblaze specifically made the conscious decision that the parts of any one single "large file" (these can be up to 10 TBytes each) are all stored within the same "vault". A vault is 20 computers in 20 separate racks. This allows a single vault to check the consistency and integrity of a large file periodically without communicating to other vaults in the datacenter.

The vaults have been a really good unit of scaling for Backblaze. If the vaults can maintain their performance, then we know we can just stamp out more vaults because there is almost no communication between vaults.

Re: Backblaze Durability Is Eleven 9s – And Why It Doesn’t Matter

#50
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there's a general term in engineering for the case where a particular risk has been reduced well below the likelihood of more serious but exotic risks. I've heard about this most in cryptography where we can sometimes say that the risk of, say, a system failing due to an unexpected hash collision is drastically less than the risk of the system failing due to cosmic radiation or various natural disasters.…

It’s not a perfect match, but Rumsfeldian “unknown unknowns” come to mind. Specifically: every X-nines durability design will be compromised by some failure mode you didn’t think of.

I tend to assume pessimistically that the durability design will itself cause a problem. Redundant switches to survive a hardware failure, e.g., strikes me as inviting trouble.
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