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Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

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Re: Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

#31

Post by pritambaral »

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #30
pritambaral wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dell has done similar things in the past, too. Intel has its ME, which is much worse than any of these. AMD has its own ME-equivalent.

Intel Management Engine is worse than secretly installing an SSL MitM and sending browsing data to an adware company run by former Israeli spies? Give me a break. Intel ME is worrisome. Lenovo's behavior was actually malicious. There's kind of a difference.

Lenovo Superfish was incompetently malicious. The ME allows Intel to competently pull off far more nefarious activities than blindly forwarding all browsing data and easily evade detection.

Superfish was removable. The ME is far from it.

There are alternatives to using Lenovo software or hardware, thus Superfish is even completely avoidable. The ME and its AMD equivalent are not.

Both are worrisome. Backdoor-in-hardware is far more worrisome.

Re: Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

#32

Post by makomk »

1996 wrote: post #5

This is short on details. So here are some more: since S0 ( active suspend) became more popular with windows 10, most manufacturers have decided to REMOVE THE CODE from the bios that allows S3 (suspend to ram). Worst case is they left the stubs pretending S3 is supported, so the computer goes to sleep - but never wakes up! Dell, I'm looking at you!! Workarounds come from redoing the S3 code, mostly in ACPI tables wit…

It sounds like this isn't just some arbitrary decision, but Windows actually requires S3 to be removed in order to use the new suspend mode. From the thread: "When ACPI table was changed to support S3, Windows Modern Standby doesn't work. Modern Standby and Suspend/Resume functions are working exclusively."

Re: Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

#33

Post by nextos »

1996 wrote: post #5

This is short on details. So here are some more: since S0 ( active suspend) became more popular with windows 10, most manufacturers have decided to REMOVE THE CODE from the bios that allows S3 (suspend to ram). Worst case is they left the stubs pretending S3 is supported, so the computer goes to sleep - but never wakes up! Dell, I'm looking at you!! Workarounds come from redoing the S3 code, mostly in ACPI tables wit…

It's worrying how obscure and poor standards compliance modern hardware is starting to display. And we're talking about PCs. Let's not even discuss mobiles.

In 2012 I bought a MacBook Air to run Linux. It's a great silent machine with all Intel hardware, except the pretty poor quality Broadcom wireless card. It boots with any vanilla kernel, and everything just works. Except for poor wireless range. What machine can I buy these days that?

i) Just works on Linux (which in practice means everything has to be Intel, including the wireless card)

ii) Is reasonably silent

The only machine I've found worth considering is a Xiaomi Air 12 with a m3 (fanless) CPU. Some Thinkpads are OK, but they tend to be on the noisy side of things due to excessively small fans and too much power I don't need. This, despite aggressively tweaking powertop settings.

I'm also looking for external USB high-gain wireless antennas. But even classic Alfa ones with Atheros 9271 chipsets are a hit and miss.

It's a bit hopeless. If someone has good suggestions, I'd be glad to consider them.

Re: Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

#34

Post by 1996 »

xfs wrote: post #28
1996 wrote: post #5

This is short on details. So here are some more: since S0 ( active suspend) became more popular with windows 10, most manufacturers have decided to REMOVE THE CODE from the bios that allows S3 (suspend to ram). Worst case is they left the stubs pretending S3 is supported, so the computer goes to sleep - but never wakes up! Dell, I'm looking at you!! Workarounds come from redoing the S3 code, mostly in ACPI tables wit…

I don't think this is even S0 suspend. At least a few year ago thinkpads have already moved to something called IRST, Intel's "suspend to SSD after sleeping for several hours" at firmware level. See https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/26022.html for details. I actually got it working with the latest kernel at that time but didn't feel comfortable using it because of all the horror stories with firmware level shenanigans.

this is something else. IRST was Intel custom implementation, back when S0 did not exist. It required a custom partition.

IIRC, suspend to disk when battery runs out is now one of the standard S0 features.

At the OS level (windows 10) there is a telemetry to check the depletion rate, and initiate suspend to disk when the rate is too high or battery is too low.

Check the logs made by microsoft powercfg, they are very informative and will help you reach power savings close to what S3 allowed.

But I need that to work in Linux too, and last time I checked it wasn't as good.

Re: Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

#35

Post by 1996 »

makomk wrote: post #32
1996 wrote: post #5

This is short on details. So here are some more: since S0 ( active suspend) became more popular with windows 10, most manufacturers have decided to REMOVE THE CODE from the bios that allows S3 (suspend to ram). Worst case is they left the stubs pretending S3 is supported, so the computer goes to sleep - but never wakes up! Dell, I'm looking at you!! Workarounds come from redoing the S3 code, mostly in ACPI tables wit…

It sounds like this isn't just some arbitrary decision, but Windows actually requires S3 to be removed in order to use the new suspend mode. From the thread: "When ACPI table was changed to support S3, Windows Modern Standby doesn't work. Modern Standby and Suspend/Resume functions are working exclusively."

Because someone was too lazy to bother with a if/else, because first implementations of S0 were so bad.

Re: Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

#36

Post by nixpulvis »

makomk wrote: post #32
1996 wrote: post #5

This is short on details. So here are some more: since S0 ( active suspend) became more popular with windows 10, most manufacturers have decided to REMOVE THE CODE from the bios that allows S3 (suspend to ram). Worst case is they left the stubs pretending S3 is supported, so the computer goes to sleep - but never wakes up! Dell, I'm looking at you!! Workarounds come from redoing the S3 code, mostly in ACPI tables wit…

It sounds like this isn't just some arbitrary decision, but Windows actually requires S3 to be removed in order to use the new suspend mode. From the thread: "When ACPI table was changed to support S3, Windows Modern Standby doesn't work. Modern Standby and Suspend/Resume functions are working exclusively."

Make it a BOIS setting then.

Re: Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

#37

Post by nixpulvis »

aclave1 wrote: post #3

I planned to buy this laptop some time this year. Has lenovo stopped supporting linux as well as they used to? I've owned two lenovo laptops and loved them and planned to buy another. I'm also looking at dell laptops since their linux support is reportedly excellent.

I have both the X1 carbon 6th (2018) and 5th. The 5th supports the S3 sleep mode and everything works just fine. If you don't need the newer model, the 5th gen is a great Linux machine.

Re: Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

#39

Post by wahern »

nextos wrote: post #33
1996 wrote: post #5

This is short on details. So here are some more: since S0 ( active suspend) became more popular with windows 10, most manufacturers have decided to REMOVE THE CODE from the bios that allows S3 (suspend to ram). Worst case is they left the stubs pretending S3 is supported, so the computer goes to sleep - but never wakes up! Dell, I'm looking at you!! Workarounds come from redoing the S3 code, mostly in ACPI tables wit…

It's worrying how obscure and poor standards compliance modern hardware is starting to display. And we're talking about PCs. Let's not even discuss mobiles. In 2012 I bought a MacBook Air to run Linux. It's a great silent machine with all Intel hardware, except the pretty poor quality Broadcom wireless card. It boots with any vanilla kernel, and everything just works. Except for poor wireless range. What machine can…

> It's worrying how obscure and poor standards compliance modern hardware is starting to display.

The standards are too complex. I've spent thousands of dollars on ISO standards documents over the past several years.[1] The complexity of these documents is absurd. And I've never seen an implementation that came close to adhering to the entirety of the standard--everybody always takes shortcuts because it's not cost-effective otherwise. The problem is, everybody takes different shortcuts, so you end up with endless interoperability problems.

The exceptions are often when everybody sources hardware or software implementations from a single vendor. That's when things go more smoothly because everybody is using the same half-baked driver or firmware.

[1] The last document I purchased was 138CHF (coincidentally $138USD at today's exchange rate). They've always been at least that much in recent memory, and often standards are broken up into separate documents or incorporated by reference so you're paying 4x or 5x to get the entire standard. There's alot of free documentation online that open source developers often use, but personally I find it difficult to wrap my head around these things unless I have an idea of the overall design. (I want to see the overall picture so my initial API and architecture isn't a pile of technical debt from day 1.) I have the means so I bite the bullet. But it's a real loss to the entire community--and industry--that these standards aren't freely available. Quality of implementations would be so much better if standards were always open, and sunlight might help minimize the complexity of these things by exposing the flexibility demanded by proprietary vendors on the committees as useless barriers to entry.

Re: Suspend for the X1 Carbon 2018 on Linux

#40

Post by nixpulvis »

rayiner wrote: post #22
1996 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know why S3 does not work on some brands, the editorializing is not unwarranted. There was an active decision to remove working parts of the code. That is shameful.

There is nothing wrong with throwing away obsolete code.

It's not "obsolete"... S3 sleep mode uses much less power.
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