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Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

theguardian.com

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Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#561

Post by dang »

dekhn wrote: post #559
dang wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simple: all this fever about GoodMusk vs. BadMusk has become bone-crushingly tedious. When that happens with anything, nothing can redeem it and it's off topic on Hacker News. I definitely don't mean to pick on you personally. Dozens of HN users have been filling the threads with this lately and it needs to stop. We literally can't moderate it all, and the Elonian Provocation is large enough to be capable of swa…

Hmm. I don't agree. I think we're on the turn of the tide where the hacker community and the media will stop fawning over him if we repeatedly and politely point out that he's an attention-seeking person but that doesn't mean he needs to have news coverage.

I can think of at least two problems with that. One is that people don't really change their minds this way; all they do is dig their heels in and object harder. The other is that HN could be smothered under the weight of this material even while opinion is working itself to convergence. The Muskian Market can stay wrong longer than this site can stay solvent.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#562

Post by anon12345690 »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #557
anon12345690 wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the parents have committed a crime and the kids will be reunited later if they are real family it happens to families everyday that are citizens too not a big deal and the kids are still doing better than before, no reason for the uproar

> not a big deal and the kids are still doing better than before, no reason for the uproar Somehow, they handled it just fine and at lower cost without family separation before. If so, why separate them except due to racism? They are now having trouble reuniting families weeks later because of improper tracking.

what is before? separation has been around since law started because criminals do not say with their kids when in jail, this happens to citizens too which you ignored

thinking that its racism is just you jumping to emotional conclusions

there are no problems reuniting families when they are actually families, it is when kids are alone or abused as drug mules that they have to work harder to find where to put them

they still leave horrible conditions so why arent you upset over how bad the other countries are?

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#563

Post by dragonwriter »

anon12345690 wrote: post #562
lern_too_spel wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not a big deal and the kids are still doing better than before, no reason for the uproar Somehow, they handled it just fine and at lower cost without family separation before. If so, why separate them except due to racism? They are now having trouble reuniting families weeks later because of improper tracking.

what is before? separation has been around since law started because criminals do not say with their kids when in jail, this happens to citizens too which you ignored thinking that its racism is just you jumping to emotional conclusions there are no problems reuniting families when they are actually families, it is when kids are alone or abused as drug mules that they have to work harder to find where to put them the…

> what is before?

Before Trump’s zero tolerance policy, when criminal charges for illegal crossing were essentially never pursued on their own and families with children targeted for deportation without criminal charges were also (since the court order limiting the use of immigration detention for children) not subjected to immigration detention specifically to avoid separation, and where active steps weren't taken to force entrants seeking asylum to enter illegally by preventing access at ports of entry, which is what actually pushed most of the families subjected to Trump's zero tolerance policy into the system in the first place.

> there are no problems reuniting families when they are actually families

Yes, in fact, there are, in the present situation.

> it is when kids are alone

Unaccompanied minors have been a particular problem at times in the past, but that's not the current issue.

> or abused as drug mules

That happens, but, again, is not the source of the current crisis.

> they still leave horrible conditions so why arent you upset over how bad the other countries are?

Most people upset about this administration’s blatant and indefensible mistreatment and hostage taking with regard to asylum seekers are, also, unhappy with the conditions in the countries that they are fleeing. Which is actually a big reason why they are upset at the Administration’s further tormenting them when they are trying to flee, and actively preventing them from lawfully seeking asylum.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#564

Post by dragonwriter »

anon12345690 wrote: post #529
lern_too_spel wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many are not separated from parents but from strangers. These aren't the ones that the uproar is about. The uproar is about the children who have been separated from their parents, not the children being held in foster care or holding facilities in general. The 3000 separated from parents is a number from HHS Secretary Azar. The Trump administration updated that number to 2342 children separated from 2206 parents.

the parents have committed a crime and the kids will be reunited later if they are real family it happens to families everyday that are citizens too not a big deal and the kids are still doing better than before, no reason for the uproar

> the parents have committed a crime

Largely, because the Administration has taken active steps to prevent lawful asylum applications.

> and the kids will be reunited later if they are real family

Maybe, sometimes, after the recent court order requiring that; most recently prior to that the kids were being used as hostages to force parents to sign voluntary deportation agreements and give up asylum claims; during and prior to that children were deported separately from their parents and vice versa in a number of cases. And, in any cases, there was no tracking of any kind to facilitate reunification.

> not a big deal and the kids are still doing better than before

No, they often aren't; especially for the younger children, being forcibly separated from their parents is itself an enormous trauma that will damage their development (social/emotional especially for life.)

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#565

Post by dragonwriter »

anon12345690 wrote: post #320
chx wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is 3000 a low enough number? There are 3000 children in concentration camps in the USA separated from their parents. Edit: yes, I have chosen the words concentration camps to evoke the sceptre of the Holocaust. Also note my grandmother is still alive and an Auschwitz survivor. We. have. seen. this. before! 1. Classification 2. Symbolization 3. Discrimination 4. Dehumanization 5. Organization 6. Polarization 7. Prepar…

not really if you actually pay attention to border patrol, you will see that these kids have left horrible conditions and many are not separated from parents but from strangers using them to get in or for drug smuggling. some dont even have any parents or family with them. ICE also saves the most lives on the border

> ICE also saves the most lives on the border

No, they don't, even before the Trump Administration policy changes that have produced the recent issues. You are confusing ICE with the Border Patrol. They aren't the same thing.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#566

Post by kadenshep »

dang wrote: post #560
kadenshep wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>nothing can redeem it and it's off topic on Hacker News. That seems largely contradictory to the hacker ethos, no?

It's a fair question, but the answer is no, because of the tragedy of the commons. That is, you may be right at the individual level, but it's unfortunately common for the sum total of individual effects to become something completely contrary to what any of the individuals would want. We have to manage the site at that sum-total level. This means telling people "don't do the things that produce lousy systemic effect…

Wouldn't the correct thing to do in that case then would be to wholesale delete pro/anti musk threads that specifically revolve around him as a CEO?

Right now it seems like current moderation tactics are encouraging a "lie hard and fast" mode, so the truth can't catch up -- so to speak. Essentially the moderation policy is acting as a floodgate that only closes when perspectives that negate the "pro" side of things are brought into play.

This is apparent in what was allowed to be posted without question and in how you, intentionally or not, only replied to anti-musk threads. There were at least 4 threads, that I just looked at now at the time of this post, that were both not flagged by the community nor set straight from a moderator that were purely composed of vague personal attacks (it would have been better if they had just been forthright with it).

I understand that HN has limited resources and you clearly value the integrity of this forum, I just think certain perspectives unfairly caught your attention more than they should have.

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#567

Post by 67_45 »

jacobush wrote: post #77
jonhendry18 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His efforts turned out to be a bit of a damp squib but that's because the rescue effort was launched earlier than expected due to coming heavy rains. There was talk about having the kids wait in there until as late as November, or maybe a long process of drilling an escape hole. If the rescue had begun a week or two later, perhaps Musk's gadget would have been used. As it is, the divers already had a plan that, by th…

He himself said something akin to "I may be a narcissist, but at least a useful one".

I would need a spource. What's next dude? The Gates foundation is all a PR stunt?

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#568

Post by 67_45 »

thieving_magpie wrote: post #327
chrisper wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's no one to be mad at. Except at the soccer coach who thought it was a good idea to endanger 12 children by going into a cave during monsoon season which also led to the death of an innocent person?

The monsoon season starts in July. They went in at the end of June. All warning signs in front of the cave are about July through October. There's a risk there sure but you're giving out bad information here needlessly.

"the end of June"

Otherwise known as july

Re: Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued

#569

Post by handbanana »

NeutronStar wrote: post #400
metiscus wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did so at tremendous human cost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%9... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1946%E2%80%93...

You're talking like they didn't get invaded by the germans and lost 20M comrades vs the "atrocious war crimes against the jews" that totalled 6M... Russia took a beating and basically stop the german progress for the WEST to be able to regroup and refight way later.

Fighting a war on two fronts did Germany in. Do some research on what contributed to that 20m and you’ll soon realize the number didn’t have to be nearly that high. Stalin was a political genius, but almost as atrocious as Hitler when it came to human rights
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