Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#31

Post by adamnemecek » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

bandrami wrote: post #9

This will be unpopular, but: what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Nobody wants to say that, but if it's true, then something like a UBI or dole (even granting the author's problems with it) is all we can do short of mounting a massive Plato's Cave-like conspiracy to convince people they are doing something usefu…

> what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context?

I agree with you, at the same time I believe that this is a failure of the educational system. The current educational system is fucked up. One of the main problems is that it creates "good students" as opposed to people who grow up to contribute to society.

I hated this about high school and university. You are forced to regurgitate what someone said as opposed to developing your own opinions.

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#32

Post by adamnemecek » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

prolikewh0a wrote: post #28

bandrami wrote: post #9

This will be unpopular, but: what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Nobody wants to say that, but if it's true, then something like a UBI or dole (even granting the author's problems with it) is all we can do short of mounting a massive Plato's Cave-like conspiracy to convince people they are doing something usefu…

>uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Someone still has to do the jobs. The sanitation workers, the McDonalds employees, the truck drivers, the waiters, the cooks -- they all have a role in society and are economically worthwhile -- it's just that nobody has had a raise since the 90's and income inequality is the highest i…

> Someone still has to do the jobs. The sanitation workers, the McDonalds employees, the truck drivers, the waiters, the cooks

Those jobs are going away.

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#33

Post by 40acres » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

bandrami wrote: post #9

This will be unpopular, but: what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Nobody wants to say that, but if it's true, then something like a UBI or dole (even granting the author's problems with it) is all we can do short of mounting a massive Plato's Cave-like conspiracy to convince people they are doing something usefu…

Interesting thought, I'd wager that our economy isn't as efficient as it should be with respect to the labor force. For instance there are tons of men in their prime age working years who are dropping out of the labor force, and the teen employment rate is low compare to previous years. You also have older Americans who may be physically unable to do manual work but could be hired in a sort of a human + software augmentation role (think humans looking at Facebook content that is flagged to double check the algorithm).

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#34

Post by roflc0ptic » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #21

bandrami wrote: post #9

This will be unpopular, but: what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Nobody wants to say that, but if it's true, then something like a UBI or dole (even granting the author's problems with it) is all we can do short of mounting a massive Plato's Cave-like conspiracy to convince people they are doing something usefu…

> what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Nobody wants to say that What are you talking about. People on HN say that all the time; it's one of the core premises underlying the feeling that UBI will eventually be necessary? Indeed, that seems to be the prevailing view even though it flies in the face of the evidence…

Decent comment, good point about the evidence. I downvoted this because it opens with “what are you talking about.” In spite of being reasonably insightful, the presentation makes the comment negative value add IMO. Being nice makes these discussions much more productive.

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#35

Post by webkike » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

afpx wrote: post #23

bandrami wrote: post #9

This will be unpopular, but: what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Nobody wants to say that, but if it's true, then something like a UBI or dole (even granting the author's problems with it) is all we can do short of mounting a massive Plato's Cave-like conspiracy to convince people they are doing something usefu…

I don’t think it’s unpopular. That’s part of the reason why people like me support things like UBI. I mean, let’s be real here. I’m a mid-40s, above-average-IQ nerd millionaire, but if I graduated college today, I’m pretty certain that I wouldn’t make it as well economically. And, I’m really certain that if I was born less-lucky in mental capacities (or other factors) I’d be pretty screwed, no matter how hard I worke…

Also, let's not discount the high probability that if you are successful, you are also probably extremely lucky.

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#36

Post by anonacct37 » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

pretendscholar wrote: post #16

sharemywin wrote: post #13

"That’s why I remain fascinated by smart people in the United States being so misguided about the implications of the UBI in a country that has no decent healthcare system, a poor primary education complemented by a horrendously expensive higher education system. A state in which having more than two children is a mark of social status and in which any life crisis can lead to a social precipice." from the article

>A state in which having more than two children is a mark of social status? Really? I never knew that was a thing.

Yeah. Maybe in the 1800s or within a few already high status circles (being a rich Mormon doctor that can afford to have 6 kids in all the sports).

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#37

Post by theothermkn » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

prolikewh0a wrote: post #30

_bpgl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another way to frame that: What if it's a coincidence that the rent of labor has afforded a tolerable lifestyle for the masses and lavish lifestyles for capital owners for nearly 200 years? And, what if this coincidence that has supported a social order (explicit or de facto capitalism) is coming to an end? I'm fond of Zizek's remark that it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism…

>I'm fond of Zizek's remark that it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. Can you provide a source for that? Only because I'm reading some Zizek books right now :)

He's said it a number of times. Googling "zizek easier" yielded a ton of autocompletes, and then a ton of hits. :)

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#38

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

bandrami wrote: post #9

This will be unpopular, but: what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Nobody wants to say that, but if it's true, then something like a UBI or dole (even granting the author's problems with it) is all we can do short of mounting a massive Plato's Cave-like conspiracy to convince people they are doing something usefu…

[deleted]

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#39

Post by chrischen » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

bandrami wrote: post #9

This will be unpopular, but: what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Nobody wants to say that, but if it's true, then something like a UBI or dole (even granting the author's problems with it) is all we can do short of mounting a massive Plato's Cave-like conspiracy to convince people they are doing something usefu…

Since most people can be self-sufficient, there shouldn’t be anything stopping a person from being at least worth their own weight unless there is a lack of natural respurces or energy for each person (as of yet not true). AI and robotics will simply make the cost of self sustenance even cheaper, which means at some point literally any contribution a human can make will be a positive one, even if all they do is identify and pick up a piece of garbage the robo trashman missed.

Re: Big Tech’s View of Universal Basic Income Is Deeply Flawed

#40

Post by lvspiff » Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

bandrami wrote: post #9

This will be unpopular, but: what if an uncomfortably large part of the population just really doesn't have anything economically worthwhile to offer in the modern context? Nobody wants to say that, but if it's true, then something like a UBI or dole (even granting the author's problems with it) is all we can do short of mounting a massive Plato's Cave-like conspiracy to convince people they are doing something usefu…

I contend its not that there are people "have nothing economically worthwhile to offer" its that the jobs that are being presented are not what they want to do or in their interest (i.e. pay what they think is enough). UBI makes sense if all the jobs are taken or jobs being automated away but if there are jobs that are out there that people don't want to do for whatever reason that shouldn't be an excuse to implement it.