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Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

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Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#81
post #28

People conflate statistics with actual results more often than not and I think those reporting on such stories and maybe even the original authors might fall for this. It was not wrong to say Hillary had a 95% chance of winning the presidential election, but the confidence was low and that value still allowed for the opposite result to happen . Also football has a lot of variance concerning team capability and end re…

> had a 95% chance [...] but the confidence was low So she had 95% chance of winning with 50% probability or what?

There are two probabilities in question: The first, of course, is the probability of victory. The second is the probability that the first probability is correct.

Consider: If someone offered to give you $2 every time a fair coin toss came up heads, or take $0.50 every time it came up tails, you'd be foolish not to take that bet a million times as you can because you know that the coin has exactly a 50% chance of coming up heads.

However, if it was an unfair coin, you'd want to know the degree to which it was unfair, and you'd have to measure it. How much do you trust those measurements? You might say that you're 90% sure that the coin has a 40-60% chance of coming up heads, or give a probability of 2% that a $1.04 to $0.96 wager would be profitable while a $1.03 to $0.97 wager would be unprofitable.

Hillary had a 95% chance to win the election. But on top of the fact that 1 in 20 times she'd lose that election if that really was the probability, the 95% number was uncertain because the measurements were difficult to pin down - maybe she'd have lost 1 in 40 times, or maybe she'd have lost 1 in 5 times. All we know now is that she lost, and that many of the assumptions and measurements the pollsters had to make concerning factors like voter turnout, nationalism, corruption, foreign interference, debate results, and fundraising turned out to be inaccurate.

With unfair coin measurements, you can get very accurate numbers with just a handful tests. When predicting election results or World Cup games, you're much less likely to make an accurate estimate. The confidence is an estimate of how likely that estimate is to be accurate.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#82

In case anyone was interested here is a table of how likely the model thought each team was to make it through any particular stage[0] along with the stage that that team went out in and the probability that the model gave for that particular outcome (i.e. [probability of making it through the final stage they made it through] - [probability of making it through the stage they went out in]). Groups Round_16 Quarters…

Japan went out in Round_16

Croatia went out in Finals

And I do not understand what the last column means (except for France and teams out in group phase)

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#83
Soccer is a sport with a big random component. This is probably why it is so exciting. An average team can beat a better team.

The reason is easy to see. The game can be decided by one, two or three key plays. Compare that to basket ball. To win a game you have to consistently score more and defend better. Rarely the game is decided by one or two plays. That only happens when the game is already very tight.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#84

I am somewhat shocked that GS would jump into the prediction business of the World Cup, even as joke. The risk of people getting the wrong idea about the prediction and GS itself is too great, even with a perfectly defensible model. This is an enterprise for bookies, not Goldman Sachs.

FYI - I worked at Goldman Sachs and then a hedge fund for a decade. On the Capital Markets / Trading side, you are literally a bookie. In fact the nomenclature is "you have a book." You are setting trading spreads based on where you think things will go. Depending on the market, your work may be more or less statistical and you're trying to gain a statistical advantage.

Surely your book is meant to be hedged though?

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#85
post #36
post #23

People love to beat up on these companies because of this stupid world cup prediction. Yes, Goldman is a giant vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity (Matt Taibi quote). But it turns out it's really just great marketing for their research teams. Also, I've seen some people say (not in this forum) that banks now look stupid because they're in the business of making predictions and they can't even get the wo…

>Banks make no money on predictions. They make money on flows and taking spreads on trades they do with clients. You're mostly right but to further clarify, an investment bank like Goldman Sachs has revenue from mostly "market making" spreads but it does also have activities that depend on predictions such as their proprietary trading (before the Volcker Rule shut them down) and their GSAM (Goldman Sachs Asset Manage…

The Volcker Rule shutdown approximately 0 amount of proprietary trading on wall street. Any articles you can point me to were merely media stunts by their respective firms.

The rule was too complex and onerous to be implemtable. Case in point, it's already being rolled back... Certainly because of the current administration we're in. But more because it was just a poorly written and thought out idea to start with.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#86

People conflate statistics with actual results more often than not and I think those reporting on such stories and maybe even the original authors might fall for this. It was not wrong to say Hillary had a 95% chance of winning the presidential election, but the confidence was low and that value still allowed for the opposite result to happen . Also football has a lot of variance concerning team capability and end re…

According to 538 Hillary had a 70% chance. Yes. Many people completely interpreted that like 70% would vote for Clinton. I had to explain the meaning of "70% chance" to people who should know better. I think they just heard the number and didn't give it a second thought.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#87
Financial modeling is about risk adjust return. Because GS knows they can not determine with certainty the outcome of a given investment, they diversify and hedge. Most of all, GS is a market maker, the equivalent of a bookie. To say that GS’s models “didn’t come close” is to ignore all the ways in which such a grading scheme is different than GS’s actual business model. If their WC prediction efforts acted as anything more than a fun spirited PR project, it was likely that GS wanted to somehow keep its employees engaged and adding business value during the WC which they otherwise would have been certainly watched all month.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uncertainty is a truism; that's why people want to use a prediction algo. Did the system so better on results it was more certain about? Predicting the result of an A or B contest the bar is already defined. Either the system gets it right or doesn't, if it gets it right more often than not then (despite this being poor grounds mathematically, on a small result pool) popular press will report it as successful. IMO if…

> Predicting the result of an A or B contest the bar is already defined. I disagree: If team A has a 10-30% chance of winning, and A pulls off the upset, the correct answer was not "A Wins" it was "B has a 70-90% chance of winning". For Goldman Sachs' investments, the bar is not to predict that A wins or that B wins, it's to predict the probability and variance regarding which team will win. Of course, from a single…

The problem is that the 2018 World Cup is not a repeatable event. Neither are most open-market trades (presumably the point of this whole PR stunt being to show that their quants are good at making smart bets in the markets) but they're a LOT closer.

Soccer is a pretty data-poor environment, or at least was historically. Before movement trackers, there was very little data to play with. With movement tracking data slowly building up, I suspect that soccer analytics will soon have their "Moneyball" moment the way baseball did.

The reason baseball got there sooner is that, even without advanced player movement tracking, baseball is a data rich environment. There are ~2500 MLB games played per year in the the 30-team era, and we have at least box scores going back to the late 19th century for most professional games, and pitch-by-pitch data going back to the eighties. In addition, a lot of the most important data is cleaner in nature (pitcher-batter match-ups) and also abundant (compare ~200 pitches in a baseball game to ~15 shots on goal in a soccer game, to take a guess at the order of magnitude).

Computing power can help squeeze more information from the soccer data we collect going forward, but there is a century or more of player tracking data that we can just never ever have, since it wasn't being collected. We know Babe Ruth's batting line but we will never have the soccer equivalent of UZR for Pele. I don't know if there is a retrosheet-equivalent effort for soccer to collect stats from old film, but that would be one way to partially bridge the gap.

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