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Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

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Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#61
post #30

> And in any case, the model only generated probabilities of winning a game and advancing, and no team was given more than an 18.5 percent chance of winning the World Cup. > [...] > But Goldman Sach’s misfire is perhaps the most curious. The model said, that there is a lot of uncertainty, and as it happens, it was entirely correct. A World Cup chance of 18.5 percent means, that 4 out of 5 times the team will not win,…

But Goldman Sachs are the kings of predicting uncertainty! This is their whole business! They make billions predicting certainty through the murky, uncertain waters of the global economy. Would you argue that the global economy is more uncertain that soccer? I'd say so. How is it that they can find success in the market but not in soccer? I think this is a smoke signal. Soccer is corrupt; you can't predict the winner…

Unclear if your comment is tongue in cheek, but assuming that you're serious, I'd encourage you to give a listen to a podcast episode like this: https://soundcloud.com/bettheprocess/episode-35-ted-knutson.

In the world of sports betting/analytics, you have baseball and basketball at the forefront, and then American football, soccer, and hockey (roughly in that order).

Off the top of my head, there are several reasons why the latter three sports have all lagged behind:

-Lack of data

It wasn't until the last 4-5 years that widely available, affordable, and accurate data for soccer matches was available. Companies like Opta have accomplished this by outsourcing the watching of games and the manual tagging of events, which was made possible by the advent of cheap cloud computing.

It should be self-evident why tracking the position and actions of 22 players is more complicated than something like baseball, where for the most part you are looking at one pitcher vs. one batter, much of which can be automated with computer vision that tracks pitch position, speed, and spin.

-Complexity

It's no accident that baseball was the first sport to be revolutionized by analytics. Most of the time, it's a static game, with a clearly defined action set. I.e. do I swing at the pitch or not. Do I throw a fastball or not. Do I attempt to steal a base or not.

In games like American football, soccer, and hockey, you have anywhere from 12-22 players on the field at a time. Tracking what the players without the ball or the puck are doing is a difficult task technically, as is quantifying their impact. Concepts like expected goals and expected goals added are recent ones.

-Sample size

Typical elite soccer leagues see each team play each other twice. In England and Spain, this means you have 38 games per season.

Baseball has a 162 game season and playoff games, basketball has an 82 game season and playoff games, etc. Coupled with the fact that quality data has been only collected for a few years, and you get other problems.

In basketball and baseball, the effects of aging on player performance and statistics is fairly well understood now. We can generally calculate the 5-year market value of a player etc. In the other sports I mentioned, we don't yet have that kind of time series data to be able to make those judgements.

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Specific to the World Cup, there are other reasons why you may find it hard to predict results.

-Team chemistry and style

Even though the World Cup is the most high-profile soccer event in the world, most players are spending 1-3 months a year with their national teams. Their "day jobs" with their clubs teams take up most of their playing time and attention.

As anyone who has played the game Football Manager will know, managing a national team is a tough job. You have no say over how the players are practicing when they're away from you, and no control over the physical condition in which they arrive at the World Cup. This year, there was barely a month between the end of the regular European seasons and the start of the World Cup.

In that month's time, you have to get at least 11 players who have not played with each other, to learn your style of play. Do you want to play a pressing style? Are you attempting a slow buildup, or trying long balls? Etc. etc.

-Home field advantage

In baseball and basketball, most modern statistical models account for home field advantage. Having 60,000 Russian fans chanting and heckling likely played a role in the team's ability to upset Spain, particularly during penalty kicks.

This goes back to the sample issue. How many times before have Spain played Russia IN Russia in front of a large crowd? Probably never.

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All this is to say, cut Goldman some slack. There are a number of non-nefarious reasons why you may expect a soccer model to produce some spectacular miscues.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#62
post #30

> And in any case, the model only generated probabilities of winning a game and advancing, and no team was given more than an 18.5 percent chance of winning the World Cup. > [...] > But Goldman Sach’s misfire is perhaps the most curious. The model said, that there is a lot of uncertainty, and as it happens, it was entirely correct. A World Cup chance of 18.5 percent means, that 4 out of 5 times the team will not win,…

Their model also had France at 2nd most likely, Belgium at 5th, and England at 7th. 3 of their top 7 made the Semi-Finals, and they called the eventual winner as Second Most Likely, and more likely than Germany. They actually predicted the Brazil/Belgium game in the Quarter Finals, but got the winner wrong. Brazil had 27 shots and 9 on target with 59% posession. Belgium only had three shots on target, and made two of them to win.

They overranked Germany, and underranked Croatia. Nearly every other person in the world did the same.

Look how disingenuous the Bloomberg article is. "Goldman Sachs updated the model throughout the tournament. It predicted a Brazil-Spain final on June 29 and Brazil-France on July 4. Its most recent prediction had England and Belgium squaring off for the cup. Both were eliminated in the semifinals." But their actual Brazil-France prediction had 8 teams left, and the winners of that round were all in the top 5. https://twitter.com/GoldmanSachs/statuses/101448576794142720... They even had Croatia over England, and France over Belgium.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#63
post #30

> And in any case, the model only generated probabilities of winning a game and advancing, and no team was given more than an 18.5 percent chance of winning the World Cup. > [...] > But Goldman Sach’s misfire is perhaps the most curious. The model said, that there is a lot of uncertainty, and as it happens, it was entirely correct. A World Cup chance of 18.5 percent means, that 4 out of 5 times the team will not win,…

But Goldman Sachs are the kings of predicting uncertainty! This is their whole business! They make billions predicting certainty through the murky, uncertain waters of the global economy. Would you argue that the global economy is more uncertain that soccer? I'd say so. How is it that they can find success in the market but not in soccer? I think this is a smoke signal. Soccer is corrupt; you can't predict the winner…

Goldman's business model is not to predict the future. Goldman has 2 business models: 1) transfer risk, 2) provide advice. For #1, it's a middleman. For #2, it's paid for brain power, experience and speed.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#64

I am somewhat shocked that GS would jump into the prediction business of the World Cup, even as joke. The risk of people getting the wrong idea about the prediction and GS itself is too great, even with a perfectly defensible model. This is an enterprise for bookies, not Goldman Sachs.

FYI - I worked at Goldman Sachs and then a hedge fund for a decade. On the Capital Markets / Trading side, you are literally a bookie. In fact the nomenclature is "you have a book." You are setting trading spreads based on where you think things will go. Depending on the market, your work may be more or less statistical and you're trying to gain a statistical advantage.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#65
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes... This is less a prediction and more a legal form of front running.

In what way is this a legal form of front running?

Everything Goldman Sachs does is front running and it's legal because they bribed all the regulators. QED.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#66

I am somewhat shocked that GS would jump into the prediction business of the World Cup, even as joke. The risk of people getting the wrong idea about the prediction and GS itself is too great, even with a perfectly defensible model. This is an enterprise for bookies, not Goldman Sachs.

FYI - I worked at Goldman Sachs and then a hedge fund for a decade. On the Capital Markets / Trading side, you are literally a bookie. In fact the nomenclature is "you have a book." You are setting trading spreads based on where you think things will go. Depending on the market, your work may be more or less statistical and you're trying to gain a statistical advantage.

Off-topic: were you able to retire after that decade?

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#67
post #28

People conflate statistics with actual results more often than not and I think those reporting on such stories and maybe even the original authors might fall for this. It was not wrong to say Hillary had a 95% chance of winning the presidential election, but the confidence was low and that value still allowed for the opposite result to happen . Also football has a lot of variance concerning team capability and end re…

> had a 95% chance [...] but the confidence was low So she had 95% chance of winning with 50% probability or what?

So this is something that people don't seem to grok quite well, and it really depends on the type of statistical analysis used.

Say you make the assumption that the quantity being estimated is truly fixed: that there's some true value for the force of gravity or some true value for the number of people that vote for X or Y.

The second assumption that comes along is that the stochasticity observed comes from your perspective of observation, and not from the ground truth. To be more blunt, you know that of all the observations you make 95% of them have the probability of yielding the result observed... but the ground truth is still fixed. Gravity has a fixed quantity, despite your experimental error, and you may have been lucky enough to observe it in your sample.

Predicting elections with frequentist methods has this same characteristic, except the observed quantity itself shapeshifts and even lies... so then there are other complications that need to be dealt with.

This is where that 50% feeling comes from. There are two outcomes, one will be true. You're data analysis just tells you that if you repeat your procedure, you'd expect 95% of those result to give you the outcome you observed.

Re: Goldman Sachs model to predict World Cup game results didn’t come close

#68
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Goldman Sachs are the kings of predicting uncertainty! This is their whole business! They make billions predicting certainty through the murky, uncertain waters of the global economy. Would you argue that the global economy is more uncertain that soccer? I'd say so. How is it that they can find success in the market but not in soccer? I think this is a smoke signal. Soccer is corrupt; you can't predict the winner…

Unclear if your comment is tongue in cheek, but assuming that you're serious, I'd encourage you to give a listen to a podcast episode like this: https://soundcloud.com/bettheprocess/episode-35-ted-knutson . In the world of sports betting/analytics, you have baseball and basketball at the forefront, and then American football, soccer, and hockey (roughly in that order). Off the top of my head, there are several reason…

On top of all that, as a low-scoring game, soccer is inherently more random, and therefore harder to predict.
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