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Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

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Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#271

Post by arcturus17 »

jazzyk wrote: post #269
arcturus17 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet in Spain when we finish a CS degree at a top uni (UPM, UPC, etc) all we can aspire to is a 25,000€ / year salary with a ridiculous progression in most cases, whereas in the US it's not uncommon to climb to 150k fairly quickly.

I agree that salaries for college-educated people are shockingly low in Spain, I think it is a reflection of the lower general (not necessarily individual) productivity in Spain - as in bureaucracy, labor laws, etc. Please keep in mind that MANY college-educated people in the US never get to even $100K (teachers, architects, there are more). Also, it takes at least 10 years (perhaps more) to get to $150K for software…

I also forgot to mention that under-25 unemployment in Spain is around 35%-40%, with general unemployment rates at 16%.

Other than not being burdened by debt, Spanish STEM majors are comparatively worse off in pretty much any post-graduation dimension you can think of compared to Americans.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#272

Post by kilburn »

franciscop wrote: post #15

As a Spaniard who has discussed this in lenght with many other Europeans[1], it really seems like the US is the main country with the University debt issue. I also really believe that "score inflation" is a big issue mainly in the US. If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! [2] In Spain, Germany, France, Italy, etc if you get a degree in STEM it means you put a lot of effo…

> In Spain, Germany, France, Italy, etc if you get a degree in STEM it means you put a lot of effort. [...] But the requirements to finish the degree have not changed so drastically as in the US so going to University is quite a good choice.

TLDR: As a Spaniard, I strongly disagree. Neither our universities as institutions nor our teachers as individuals have much incentive to (fairly) fail students, whereas they have many incentives to (unfairly) pass them. As a result, the level has dropped significantly in the latest decades.

The requirements in our degrees have plummeted since 20-30 years ago. Seriously, check exams from 20 years ago for ANY subject that was taught back then, and compare them to last year's. The difference is staggering.

There are several reasons for this:

First, because the level in high-school has been dropping similarly. Students get to the university with a lower base level, and hence they cannot be taught at the same level than before.

Second, because more and more people go to uni as time passes. This also drags down the average level of the average class (with respect to when the uni population was composed mainly of good and MOTIVATED students).

Third, because -contrary to what's been said here- our universities gain significantly from passing students. For one, each degree taught by a school is evaluated regarding the percentage of students that finish the degree in a set time, percentage of students that quit, and percentage of course passes [1]. This is the main evaluation of "quality" of a degree, and not hitting the set goals will lead to the degree being dropped.

Also, teachers gain nothing from failing students. Most will just accept it (because most know they really don't deserve to pass). However, some will complain. Very loudly. And handling such complaints is a huge time-sink not just for the involved teacher, but also for the department and the School itself. The easy way out is to just pass people. Many teachers openly admit that they pass lots of students who they don't think have achieved the goals of their subjects. And many students themselves admit it too.

[1] https://www.boe.es/buscar/pdf/2007/BOE-A-2007-18770-consolid... , Article 8

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#273

Post by dredmorbius »

fulafel wrote: post #266
dredmorbius wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has extracted more oil than any other country on Earth, full stop. It was a net exporter from the 1860s through 1950. It had surplus extraction capacity until 1972. And yet, no resource curse?

Ots the $$ per capita in (un/underrefined) exports that does it. Oil was cheap pre-50s and us has a big population. I can't be bothered to look up the figure but i bet it was much smaller than Norway's $$/capita figure.

Possibly.

I don't have an answer, but the question's an interesting one.

Accounts of early US oil history and sudden and capricious wealth, particularly in Pennsylvania, Texas, California, etc., are fascinating.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#274

Post by eli_gottlieb »

Immortalin wrote: post #248
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but there's no such thing as a combined education in plant physiology, embedded firmware development, and machine learning, so maybe employers should just get off their high horse and train people. (This is a reference to several jobs posted at MIT and in other Cambridge, MA workplaces on various occasions.)

Applied ML on IoT-controlled Psychedelic plant husbandry?

Nothing in the ad said it was psychedelic, but yeah, applied deep learning on IoT-controlled plant husbandry. I hope to God they were just going through the motions of a job posting with a candidate in mind, because normally even MIT-related people aren't that blindly entitled about hiring as to label three different specialized skillsets minimum requirements without offering a lot of money.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#275

Post by jopsen »

labcomputer wrote: post #207
jopsen wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that today's generations are joining companies that are heavily specialized. Unlike previous generations which could learn while the company learned. There are some vocational coding schools, but these won't prepare you to do real computer science. There are some vocational carpentry schools with increased focus on AutoCad and other analytical skills. But these won't equipt you to design bridges..

That's true, but it feels like the HS curriculum has gotten easier, too, and that might be part of the reason that a high school diploma isn't valued by employers. My perception (anecdata!) is that helicopter parenting has badgered the faculty such that my niece and nephew have a lower bar than I did for any given letter grade (and that I had it easier than some of my much older cousins). Another point is that HS gra…

> it's hard for me to see how you can raise graduation rates without lowering the bar.

That's easy, we live in a world where each generation is smarter than the previous. For IQ tests measuring abstract thinking todays teenagers score an average of 3 points higher than teenagers did 10 years ago.

This is due to better schooling, better edutainment of kids, and many other things such as increased focus on not leaving behind kids with learning disabilities.

The trend is starting to ease of in the developed world. But only in the last 10 years or so...

Whether the bar have been lowered is hard to disprove. But we know for fact that newer generations are far more book-smart than older ones where in their time.

Note. Some forms of pure generalized intelligence don't have the same trends. But analytical and abstract thinking, also commonly known as book-smart or good in school is trending upwords over the generations.

YES: kids today are actually smarter :)

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#276

Post by Immortalin »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #274
Immortalin wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Applied ML on IoT-controlled Psychedelic plant husbandry?

Nothing in the ad said it was psychedelic, but yeah , applied deep learning on IoT-controlled plant husbandry. I hope to God they were just going through the motions of a job posting with a candidate in mind, because normally even MIT-related people aren't that blindly entitled about hiring as to label three different specialized skillsets minimum requirements without offering a lot of money.

Don't suppose you can send me the job listing?

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#277

Post by ng12 »

eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #178
bufferoverflow wrote: post #32

Norway is a very special case. A small country with lots of oil, fish, and a small population (just 5.2 million). They would have to go really wrong to be poor.

Colorado has a population of about 5.6mil and a GDP of ~300bil. Norway is 370bil. Although better than most other U.S. states, I don't have access to the services that Norwegians do. But my taxes are also very low here. We could have the same kind of services as Norway if we want to pay for it, but taxes would have to go up. Until Americans stop thinking of the word "tax" as evil, we'll always value it wrong.

Or you can just look two states over at California which has the highest taxes in the country but is still largely dysfunctional. I think there's more to it than just perception.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#278

Post by DeepYogurt »

franciscop wrote: post #37
DeepYogurt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! Certainly the competitive advantage has decreased over time. Having gone through the US university system myself I can confirm that there is... lets say "inflationary pressure", though I've also been at a european university and the same pressure existed there and for all the same reasons. I agree that the university debt seems to…

Exactly. My point is that US "score inflation" seems to be faster than in Europe. Maybe it has something to do with capitalism/socialism (pleasing the student/client), maybe with culture, maybe with language, etc. I don't know why, but it seems that way for me.

Could be. I couldn't compare rates, but the general trends seemed similar to me.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#279

Post by eli_gottlieb »

Immortalin wrote: post #276
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing in the ad said it was psychedelic, but yeah , applied deep learning on IoT-controlled plant husbandry. I hope to God they were just going through the motions of a job posting with a candidate in mind, because normally even MIT-related people aren't that blindly entitled about hiring as to label three different specialized skillsets minimum requirements without offering a lot of money.

Don't suppose you can send me the job listing?

Sorry, I saw it last year. I found it via the MIT jobs website, so if there's anything similar at the moment, you should look there to find out.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#280

Post by norge »

jopsen wrote: post #275
labcomputer wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but it feels like the HS curriculum has gotten easier, too, and that might be part of the reason that a high school diploma isn't valued by employers. My perception (anecdata!) is that helicopter parenting has badgered the faculty such that my niece and nephew have a lower bar than I did for any given letter grade (and that I had it easier than some of my much older cousins). Another point is that HS gra…

> it's hard for me to see how you can raise graduation rates without lowering the bar. That's easy, we live in a world where each generation is smarter than the previous. For IQ tests measuring abstract thinking todays teenagers score an average of 3 points higher than teenagers did 10 years ago. This is due to better schooling, better edutainment of kids, and many other things such as increased focus on not leaving…

What you're talking about is called the Flynn effect. There're many studies indicating it's not just "starting to ease", it's getting reversed for today's teenagers (i.e. they're getting dumber). Here's a recent one for Norway: http://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6674
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