Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich • Hacker News Board

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#51

Post by gaius » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:24 AM UTC

Latty wrote: post #26

franciscop wrote: post #15

As a Spaniard who has discussed this in lenght with many other Europeans[1], it really seems like the US is the main country with the University debt issue. I also really believe that "score inflation" is a big issue mainly in the US. If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! [2] In Spain, Germany, France, Italy, etc if you get a degree in STEM it means you put a lot of effo…

> If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! Only if the value of a degree is having an edge over others, not if it's value is learning - primary school isn't pointless even though most people master it. This feels like it links back to the same problem as everything else - as time goes on automation removes less skilled jobs, and more and more people will need to do more ski…

This means that at some point, university levels of education will probably become necessary for any employment

There will be plumbers and hairdressers long after the last lawyer or accountant has been replaced by AI. There is neither the demand for, nor do the prerequisites exist in the general population for, Tony Bliar's target of 50% of school leavers to go to university and achieve a degree comparable to those of even 20 years ago.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#52

Post by jxub » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:25 AM UTC

franciscop wrote: post #37

DeepYogurt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! Certainly the competitive advantage has decreased over time. Having gone through the US university system myself I can confirm that there is... lets say "inflationary pressure", though I've also been at a european university and the same pressure existed there and for all the same reasons. I agree that the university debt seems to…

Exactly. My point is that US "score inflation" seems to be faster than in Europe. Maybe it has something to do with capitalism/socialism (pleasing the student/client), maybe with culture, maybe with language, etc. I don't know why, but it seems that way for me.

Also, I'm sure it is correlated with paying so much for a degree. When a single year can cost tens of thousands failing a subject might incentivize the student to drop out, resulting in loss of a high-paying and otherwise reliable customer.

When there is no obvious reason, the purpose is always monetary in nature.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#53

Post by billysielu » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:25 AM UTC

viach wrote: post #19

endymi0n wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most cities in western / northern Europe, it's completely impossible by now to get a mortgage for a home remotely large enough for a family, even with two factory drone salaries and even if you pay all of your life.

Noticed how you added "large enough" restriction? Standards are changing, today it is not enough to buy just a house, it should be "large enough".

I think it's a response to house builders building new property with really low floor area - many people don't consider that are sufficient anymore. It's a huge problem in the UK where property is advertised by number of bedrooms and floor area is hard to find - so we get houses with lots of bedrooms, but the bedrooms are tiny, and so the whole downstairs area is also small. Standards aren't changing, houses are.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#54

Post by benaadams » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:25 AM UTC

franciscop wrote: post #41

tikkabhuna wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [1] oddly enough I have never discussed this with british people Over recent decades tuition fees have been rising, but they've been covered by a special loan. Paying back this loan is taken out of your pay cheque (via PAYE) based on how much you earn. If you don't pay it back within a certain number of years it gets wiped. Before the last major increase it was viewed by most of my peers (I graduated in 2013) as re…

Thanks! Seems like a step between the US system and the Spanish system. What happens if you lose your job for example for a couple of months? Do you have to pay as a normal loan or is it more like taxes where you only pay relative to your earnings?

Currently its +9% to your tax bands; essentially a graduate tax.

Repayment starts at £21,000pa; so if you earn £30,000 you'd pay back £37 per month

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#55

Post by Sathu » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

arthurfm wrote: post #4

Shouldn't Norway's be Norwegian [millennials] in the title? I have never heard of a Norwegian referred to as a 'Norway'. To me, the title reads as: "Unlike most millennials, the Norway countries are rich" which doesn't make any sense because millennials are people not countries.

Norwegians, in this case, feels more right, as it is referring to the people.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#56

Post by talltimtom » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

viach wrote: post #19

endymi0n wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most cities in western / northern Europe, it's completely impossible by now to get a mortgage for a home remotely large enough for a family, even with two factory drone salaries and even if you pay all of your life.

Noticed how you added "large enough" restriction? Standards are changing, today it is not enough to buy just a house, it should be "large enough".

2 adults and 2 children on 16m2 with 2 working salaries. It’s not about changing standards, it’s about families with children needing enough room to have beds for everyone and hopefully still fitting a small sofa. Back in the day, that same family would be able to have twice as big a home with one one working parent, but that was before the whole market started playing chicken to see who could put themselves most in debt to carve out a little place to live.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#57

Post by kzrdude » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

endymi0n wrote: post #17

jopsen wrote: post #11

Affordable education is probably a big part of how they do this. In northern Europe it is a clear political decision to invest in education. You'll politicians argue that we can't afford not to educate our teenagers, as it would make the welfare state unsustainable. Also, huge credit to Norway for how it handled it's olie money :)

In my not so humble opinion, it all comes down to a short- vs. farsighted culture and the resulting fundamental attitude towards kids. In the US, kids are seen at worst a nuisance and at best a personal luxury. In most of the northern/western EU, kids are seen as the future workers, decision makers and keepers of the whole economy 30 years into the future. All of the symptoms you are seeing, be it maternal / paternal…

The US cult of the personal interest above all else must have some effect, even on politics. It's a cultural problem, when corruption or self-enrichment is tolerated in public offices where the holders are supposed to act as good stewards of the common project.

I think cynicism and acceptance are two sides of the same coin, unfortunately.

One cannot cite high tax levels as a downside without looking at what you get for the bargain. High price is not a downside when you get better value for money.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#58

Post by wavefunction » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

arthurfm wrote: post #4

Shouldn't Norway's be Norwegian [millennials] in the title? I have never heard of a Norwegian referred to as a 'Norway'. To me, the title reads as: "Unlike most millennials, the Norway countries are rich" which doesn't make any sense because millennials are people not countries.

"Norway's" is the possessive referring by implication to millennials which is the preceding subject in the sentence.

>Unlike most millenials, Norway's (millenials) are rich.

You seem to be making the common conflation of the possessive with the plural of Norway (and of course there's only one Norway).

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#59

Post by gaius » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

Deestan wrote: post #9

While not as bad off as the US, we are still seeing similar trends. They still can't afford to buy apartments until their 30s if they have good jobs, while their parents bought houses at the age of 20 working as factory drones.

their parents bought houses at the age of 20 working as factory drones

Drones, really? The skill of even a basic assembly line worker dwarfs that of the glorified typing that passes for most middle-class employment. But machine tool operating is often highly skilled work.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#60

Post by mockingbirdy » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

Deestan wrote: post #9

While not as bad off as the US, we are still seeing similar trends. They still can't afford to buy apartments until their 30s if they have good jobs, while their parents bought houses at the age of 20 working as factory drones.

There are a ton of reasons.

- Adolescence lasts longer (until mid-20s) which means that people don't grow up so fast anymore. Why? Because of the wealth of the societies they live in.

- More people study. Many are around 25-27 when they finally start to work.

- Real wages didn't increase although inflation did.

- The workforce is divided: Too many marketing experts, but a shortage of craftsmen. Too many people want jobs where they just sit in an office.

- Some millennials have seen that their parents work insanely hard; they don't want to repeat their mistakes and miss important aspects of life. They value their time more and accept compromises in their salaries.

- Many young people lack money management skills. Delayed gratification is very hard to learn if you're used to a certain type of living.

- Real estate gets used as an investment opportunity which drives housing prices up. This wasn't so drastic when other more profitable investment opportunities existed.

- The job market is professionalized and more efficient, degrees get valued highly but lack their former signal effect because everyone has a degree. Therefore it's harder to find good opportunities. You need more skills and more luck to succeed in this system.

We can't just say "The previous generation had more", we have to analyze thoroughly why they could pay for a mortgage in their early 20s and how their lifestyles differed.

I'm around 20y/o in Europe and I think $60k is a low salary for someone in their 30s (with work experience of 10-15 years). I can make $10k in a good month without any degree. Maybe millennials should learn to negotiate better and demonstrate real business value to their employers. I know many people who make €7-15k (which is a top-10%/top-5% salary in Germany) who are in their 20s or early 30s.

I think many don't understand how money works and that money is just a number. So few people think strategically about their salaries and just accept their circumstances.