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“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

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Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#651
post #645
post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is the reason that the certain other BDFL is still in service? Maybe it's part of psycho-hygiene in order to be able to continue? I sincerely don't know - your question just triggered my experience when working in psychiatry and seeing how the staff was venting, talking and joking about patients - once the doors were closed. I was very shocked, was quite young, around 20 when serving - but one of the docto…

I work in patient safety in English MH settings. The culture you describe is toxic, and I would have reported all of those HCPs to their trust (using the trust complaints process), to the CQC, and possibly to their professional registration bodies. > is part of psycho-hygiene that allows the people to be able to continue to work and keep a certain distance. It's also a culture of de-humanisation that allows abuse to…

> The culture you describe is toxic

How? Which parts exactly?

> It's also a culture of de-humanisation

Again, how?

I find it creepy that without any specific examples provided you would report them.

Surely that creates a toxic culture.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#652
post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any example of being brutally personal? There's plenty where he attacks someone's work and mentions their position in the community but I don't think I've ever seen him get personal, like insulting their looks or background.

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495

There's nothing personal there, it's a generic insult. Unless Linus know's about the persons breastfeeding history of course.

My understanding is that the person being derided here isn't even a kernel developer.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#653

It's going to be very interesting to see if things like: - pattern matching - inline exception catching - path inclusion in the built in - more functional tooling - lazy keywors That were BDFL-blocked, will go back to be debated in the mailing list in the next months. And if yes, will the community stands by its root or create a new era ? The consequences of which we will only really see in 10 years. Guido as done an…

The big one I want to see, because it's one of my biggest frustrations with Python, is to finally make lambdas work like every other contemporary language instead of being inexplicably limited to a single expression simply because Guido couldn't come up with a syntax that agreed with him. There's so many cases (arguably including the problem this PEP was designed to solve!) where having a real inline closure is just…

Nononono

God please NO!

I would KILL not to make that happen. So many devs abuse those in every language that has that. Even lambas get sometimes abused in Python (and I have a few examples in our codebase unfortunately). Expanding lambdas' scope is the LAST thing I want in Python, this would just lead to worst codebases, with nearly 0 benefit.

If you want to do something that needs 2 expressions, just create a goddamn function and name it for god's sake.

Sorry but I had to say it, I think the lambda limitations is one of my favorite feature in Python.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#654
post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495

There's nothing personal there, it's a generic insult. Unless Linus know's about the persons breastfeeding history of course. My understanding is that the person being derided here isn't even a kernel developer.

  $ git shortlog -s --author Sievers --before 2012-07-06
     339  Kay Sievers

  $ git shortlog -s --author Sievers --after 2012-07-06
      12  Kay Sievers

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#655
I'm not at all optimistic about this. I understand Guido's motives and sympathise with him, but I'm afraid this will have a very detrimental effect on Python and how its development is managed.

He says: "... I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions." I can only imagine what might happen without a single decision-maker -- just think of all the vitriol that was thrown about the migration to Python 3. At best there will be endless discussions, often being decided in favour of whoever was the loudest and most aggressive on the mailing list; at worst, we might end up with multiple competing forks of Python specification and implementations...

I'm hoping that the PSF will be able to elect a single "product owner"; I don't expect them to have the same amount of influence and respect Guido had, but it would be a good start.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can never get into Python and end up with as much passion as you. For me, its a very powerful and useful language - no doubt about it. But the aesthetics of a whitespace language just don't jive with my 30+ years of experience writing code. No matter how many times I try over the past few decades, I just can't get passionate about writing Python code. I know its power, and I totally grok its value to our industry -…

I used to have a similar aversion to significant whitespace having learned in compiler classes that space should be insignificant. Over time I learned to appreciate the significant indentation though and now I want a C frontend with similar syntax.

Try Nim, pretty much a Python-esque front-end for C.

Personally I really miss defining for-loop index cars in the for-loop syntax.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#657
post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in patient safety in English MH settings. The culture you describe is toxic, and I would have reported all of those HCPs to their trust (using the trust complaints process), to the CQC, and possibly to their professional registration bodies. > is part of psycho-hygiene that allows the people to be able to continue to work and keep a certain distance. It's also a culture of de-humanisation that allows abuse to…

> The culture you describe is toxic How? Which parts exactly? > It's also a culture of de-humanisation Again, how? I find it creepy that without any specific examples provided you would report them. Surely that creates a toxic culture.

The context is someone hearing comments that were "shocking", and that were so shocking they could only be delivered behind closed doors. This is a good, but not infallible, sign of a dysfunctional culture in health care. It might be fine in other industries, but in health care there are strong links between this culture and poor, harmful, practice.

It's interesting that making a complaint is seen as a negative thing to do: if there's no basis for the complaint no action is taken. Action is only taken - the compaint is only negative for the HCP - if the HCP has done something wrong.

> and seeing how the staff was venting, talking and joking about patients - once the doors were closed. I was very shocked,

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

Have a read of the reports I mentioned to see where this toxic culture leads.

Here's mid Staffs, but they all say the same: Mid Staffordshire: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/report-of-the-mid...

> During the course of both the first inquiry and the present there has been a constant refrain from those charged with managing, leading, overseeing or regulating the Trust’s provision of services that no cause for concern was drawn to their attention, or that no one spoke up about concerns

People need to speak up. And when they do speak up, they need to be listened to.

> Negative culture

> While it is clear that, in spite of the warning signs, the wider system did not react to the constant flow of information signalling cause for concern, those with the most clear and close responsibility for ensuring that a safe and good standard care was provided to patients in Stafford, namely the Board and other leaders within the Trust, failed to appreciate the enormity of what was happening, reacted too slowly, if at all, to some matters of concern of which they were aware, and downplayed the significance of others. In the first report, this was attributed in a large part to an engrained culture of tolerance of poor standards, a focus on finance and targets, denial of concerns, and an isolation from practice elsewhere. Nothing I have heard in this Inquiry suggests that this analysis was wrong. Indeed the evidence has only reinforced it.

The first point in the executive summary to the Winterbourne View report says this:

> The abuse revealed at Winterbourne View hospital was criminal. Staff whose job was to care for and help people instead routinely mistreated and abused them. Its management allowed a culture of abuse to flourish. Warning signs were not picked up or acted on by health or local authorities, and concerns raised by a whistleblower went unheeded. The fact that it took a television documentary to raise the alarm was itself a mark of failings in the system.

Staff didn't go to Winterbourne View and immediately start punching people in the face. The abuse started with a culture of dehumanising these people, and closing off the wards to prevent criticism.

> The Serious Case Review also sets out very clearly that for a substantial portion of the time in which Winterbourne View operated, families and other visitors were not allowed access to the wards or individual patients’ bedrooms. This meant there was very little opportunity for outsiders to observe daily living in the hospital and enabled a closed and punitive culture to develop on the top floor of the hospital. Patients had limited access to advocacy and complaints were not dealt with.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#658
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A programming language and the tools you use with it are tightly integrated: you're never using a language, you're always using a language via a tool. And if all C compilers you might use have warnings enabled for this buggy expression, then there's no problem.

The most important "program" that reads your source code is probably in your brain. You probably have some "tooling" in their that is on the watch for "if (x = y)" and other patterns, but I'm sure you'd prefer to not have to run it. As another counterexample let me give you "language tooling". For example, write a tool that generates a FFI from $LANGUAGE to C. Is it really so unimportant that $LANGUAGE is clean and s…

> that $LANGUAGE is clean

s/\$LANGUAGE/C/

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#659

It's going to be very interesting to see if things like: - pattern matching - inline exception catching - path inclusion in the built in - more functional tooling - lazy keywors That were BDFL-blocked, will go back to be debated in the mailing list in the next months. And if yes, will the community stands by its root or create a new era ? The consequences of which we will only really see in 10 years. Guido as done an…

The big one I want to see, because it's one of my biggest frustrations with Python, is to finally make lambdas work like every other contemporary language instead of being inexplicably limited to a single expression simply because Guido couldn't come up with a syntax that agreed with him. There's so many cases (arguably including the problem this PEP was designed to solve!) where having a real inline closure is just…

I read a long time ago and was convinced that no nice lambdas was one of the biggest problems in python, but that poster argued convincingly that it's an unavoidable consequence of the meaningful whitespace. Are you proposing a special syntax for multiple statements on one line for this?

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#660

Python was my first programming language, ~15 years ago. The bracket- and semicolon-free syntax is beautiful and approachable to this day. Python is my go-to for writing data format conversion scripts. I wrote a random sentence generator in Python 10 years ago that gave me and my friends hours of entertainment. Thanks, Guido, for the good times!

I can never get into Python and end up with as much passion as you. For me, its a very powerful and useful language - no doubt about it. But the aesthetics of a whitespace language just don't jive with my 30+ years of experience writing code. No matter how many times I try over the past few decades, I just can't get passionate about writing Python code. I know its power, and I totally grok its value to our industry -…

> but for me, Lua is just far more elegant,

It's curious... Lua is my favorite language due to its elegance, but I would love it even more if it used significant indentation (using tabs, of course) instead of "end" blocks.

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