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“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

mail.python.org

471–480 of 764 posts

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The indentation should be almost the same as any other language. Unless you have an aversion to consistent code-style. Python whitespace was only annoying for me years ago when it still had trouble handling tabs and spaces in the same file, and you would run into literally invisible bugs. I haven't run into that in a long time, though.

It's also basically impossible to cut-and-paste code from a web forum. Was that "else" from the inner or the outer "if"?

What editor are you using? This just works in VSCode, vim, TextMate, etc.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thinking that linting and static typing will stop all errors is foolish (although I prefer both, myself). Thinking that putting a seatbelt will prevent death in a crash is foolish, and yet they are still mandatory

Here you are very wrong. Look at https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/seatbelts/facts.html#... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt

that's exactly what I mean. Seatbelts won't save you every time but they save you enough times that they are mandatory.

> In another study that examined injuries presenting to the ER pre- and post-seat belt law introduction, it was found that 40% more escaped injury and 35% more escaped mild and moderate injuries.[83]

I don't know how many bugs can use of all possible explicit typing and compiler warnings avert but I'd wager that it would be at least as high a percentage.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really? I'm not suggesting that great care shouldn't be taken; I'm suggesting that there's no evidence that it hasn't, and that neither you nor me are particularly important players in the story of what is happening, and that nobody owes us an explanation. Certainly, a concerted effort to prevent GvR from stepping down as BDFL seems silly.

If a parent tells their 25 year old child that they’re done with it and sick and tired of the job, I think the child should at least look inside themselves and assess whether anything they did that prompted that should be changed.

If the relationship between GvR and the Python project was some completely different relationship (parent-child, facehugger-host, butterfly-cyclone, etc) then maybe there should be some completely different response. But it's not.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#474

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot. Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule. Not the nicest moment i…

We are acutely aware of why Guido is retiring sooner than any of us expected; it has actually been discussed already on the mailing list as to what went wrong with the PEP 572 discussion and how we could potentially fix it. So there's no lack of understanding of why this is occurring now and we have already begun to think about how to address the issue.

Many of us have also been thinking about what we would do when this day arrived for years (Guido has hinted at retiring previously), so there's a lot of pent-up thought to get out there while we all start to think about what comes next to a project some of us have dedicated decades to. The conversation has been thoughtful and not a single person has said "I should be the next BDFL". All names put forward by anyone for any position has been by another.

IOW the insinuation that any of us who are trying to grapple with this are trying to vie for power while ignoring why this occurred does not seem like a fair assessment to me. This kind of unnecessary negativity and accusation is why Guido is retiring early.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#475

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

I think what you're saying is true in the case of someone just throwing up some code they wrote online without any plan of supporting or developing it further.

But once you call it an open-source project, and you have docs and a roadmap and an issues page and stuff, you're making an implicit contract with people who use it that it will do a reasonable job of solving the problem it claims to solve. The user is choosing to use it over other alternatives and investing time learning and integrating it, so it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me for them to be frustrated when they realize that due to some bug or limitation it doesn't actually solve the problem for them that it claims to.

As an analogy, if you give someone free food and it makes them sick, are they justified in getting mad at you? I think most people would say yes. IANAL but I'd imagine that if you got food poisoning from Ben & Jerry's free cone day due to negligent sanitation practices or something, you could probably sue the company just like if you had paid for it.

Or, if a member of some sort of volunteer community board is doing a bad job, people will complain about it. An open source maintainer is basically in the same position.

Of course, that's no excuse for being rude to them, but you also shouldn't be rude if you paid for something and it doesn't work. I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything to reduce hostility towards maintainers when it happens. But it's not true, in open source software or anywhere else, that just because something is free there are automatically no expectations around it.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with this. In 1999 I had only used C and shell (well lisp a little bit in college), and python was such a breath of fresh air...

Even though I am hardwired to C and 'thinking like a machine would/prefers', python was probably the first and only language I didn't feel like it was a programming language at all. Always when I write something in it, it's always 'huh, and that's it? I'm... done?'. Sure, it's equal part due to language and 'batteries', but neither would happen without GvR and awesome community that built around his project and him.…

how is python like lisp?

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often don't realize this. We hear a lot that python is moving too fast or too slow. To say that disregard the delicate balance the language had to dance on for 20 years. It's crazy.

Agree but it’s closer to 30.

28 if you want the exact number. :) Guido started developing Python in December 1989 and went public with it on Usenet in February 1991 (Unicode 1.0 was standardized in October later that year to give perspective of how far back that was in the tech world).

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#479
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are they supposed to do? Python is bigger than GvR. A pretty big chunk of the tech industry depends on it. We were probably long past the point where a "BDFL" was healthy --- not because of any moral issue, but because over the long term the market is going to dictate where Python goes and how it grows, and people should stop kidding themselves that it might be otherwise. I don't think it's at all unseemly that…

> but because over the long term the market is going to dictate where Python goes and how it grows The market gave us the absolute mess that is HTML/CSS/Javascript today, so I'm sincerely hoping the Python community will keep agreeing on some greater design principles instead of leaving everything to market forces and pragmatism.

"The market" took over after a long period of "design by committee" that had "strong design principles"[1] resulting in something that was both inadequate for what people wanted to do and didn't evolve at a promising pace (likely because of said principles).

When the market did take over, the problem was that those poor foundations weren't thrown out completely. You can only do so much by strapping turbines on a camel (no offense to camels). At least we can actually write (mediocre) applications with HTML/CSS/JS now.

The other part of the mess is caused by the ever-growing amount of trend-hopping junior developers that want to try out new things - and their superiors letting them do it. If the foundation wasn't so bad, there would be less incentive to try and re-invent anything. Other platforms are fully market-driven, they didn't produce such a mess, because the market rewards stability (hence the low initial adoption rates of Python 3).

[1] https://www.w3.org/People/Bos/CSS-variables

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#480

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

I think what you're saying is true in the case of someone just throwing up some code they wrote online without any plan of supporting or developing it further. But once you call it an open-source project, and you have docs and a roadmap and an issues page and stuff, you're making an implicit contract with people who use it that it will do a reasonable job of solving the problem it claims to solve. The user is choosin…

I think theres absolutely zero implicit contract that implies that open source software maintainers owe ANYone ANYthing at ANYtime.

That's the reason it's open source because everyone can fix it, all an open source maintainer owes you is a P.R. review.

Therefore if an open source project maintainer is giving you their time and patience then you better be extra polite and grateful to them.

If Ben and Jerrys left a bunch of ice cream on the sidewalk and a bunch of people ate it and got sick then there would be zero liability on Ben and Jerrys.

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