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“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

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Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#451

Post by chrstphrhrt »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

Not just you. It's a thing.

Even more extreme, consider that companies that do charge money drop the ball constantly on security/privacy, and basic quality. And yet they continue growing, maybe having a bit of churn.

I think there's something about generosity that just attracts entitled bullies/leeches because they see it as an opportunity to "win" against people who are "foolish" (aka "weak") enough to work for free. Sadly sometimes the generous are duped into considering such requests out of curiosity or politeness, which leads to burnout or worse.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#452

Post by justinator »

ScottBurson wrote: post #434
justinator wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I caught the part about, "we have unitialized variables being passed everywhere which should be numbers" and that code, well, smells. I think the PHP team changing the return value of a function without putting anything in a changelog is a Very Bad Idea and a dev. should be pretty upset about that. Saying that the main dev. is doing this work as a charitable thing is fairly misleading as well. Buuuuut, I also think p…

I agree with this as far as it goes, but I think @zaphar has the better answer: a tax app should never have been written in PHP to begin with. There's a fundamental quandary in language design: accessibility to novice programmers and suitability for serious work are in opposition. Novices, being novices, are unable to appreciate this problem.

Oh dude: absolutely agreed on that.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#453

Post by gaius »

jacquesm wrote: post #331
gaius wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then explain nodejs and MongoDB existing in production systems? Or did you forget the /s...

> Or did you forget the /s... Yep. It's been a long day after a particularly long week. I will take a break from HN, too much on my mind. Thanks for the reminder.

Have a great weekend, catch you on the flipside

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#454

Post by habosa »

newen wrote: post #430
TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

In the majority of cases, they are getting paid to code it (by some company, organization, etc). And they benefit from the popularity of the the software. So I don't think I need to see myself as a charity case or adopt a please please please attitude with them.

I maintain a number of open source projects for Google. So yes I am paid to do it and yes the company benefits from it. That said, it doesn't mean that developers who use it can take an entitled stance and expect to get anywhere.

I get so many bug reports like "This sux and you have to fix it!!!!" and even when I wake up on the right side of the bed, there's nothing I can do with those.

A calm discussion of what the developer is trying to achieve, what they expect to happen, what actually happens, and how I can reproduce will get a quick response from me 100% of the time.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#455

Post by kro39nxkdk »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

Recently saw a friend Tweet about a Python update breaking his heavily personalized Linux env

“They lack rigorous testing it seems” with no consideration that he’s running his own distro and toolchain (he’s gotten a big intense about this stuff)

I have much less respect for this ridiculously talented engineer, who lacks wisdom

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#456

Post by noonespecial »

kk__ wrote: post #445
TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

You are paying for python. You pay for any software product you use by not using an alternative. OSS maintainers deserve respect but at a certain point they have turned their hobby in to their career, complete with clients and marketing. If you are willing to trust an open source project for your livelihood than the maintainer also has an obligation to respect that.

You missed the part of "paying" where there is any benefit at all (or incentive) in the maintainer doing that work for you.

Worse, it's open source. You are always free to do it your damn self if it's so important to your livelihood.

Rule 1: Nobody owes you jack.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#457

Post by sverige »

[deleted] wrote: post #442

[deleted]

Sorry, but I don't see how it is his responsibility to choose a successor or create leaders. There are obviously a lot of devs on the project who were resistant to his direction, which contributed to his exhaustion.

I think it's great that he's telling them to figure it out themselves without his input. It's exactly what is needed, since it is likely to reveal the fissures more clearly. It's a lot easier to bitch than it is to lead; maybe some of them will discover that in a way they hadn't anticipated. Hopefully they figure it out before it implodes or fractures, but if not, there's a future that can handle that as well.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#458

Post by gregmac »

kk__ wrote: post #445
TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

You are paying for python. You pay for any software product you use by not using an alternative. OSS maintainers deserve respect but at a certain point they have turned their hobby in to their career, complete with clients and marketing. If you are willing to trust an open source project for your livelihood than the maintainer also has an obligation to respect that.

> You pay for any software product you use by not using an alternative.

Sure, but in the same sense "you pay" for eating a day-old egg salad sandwich you found sitting on a park bench. (Luckily, even using badly-written open source software generally has a less unpleasant outcome.)

Like open source, the chef -- who you have no relationship, connection or contract with -- is not under any obligation to guarantee either your satisfaction or survival.

If you want to reduce the risk to your livelihood, you should pay money for both your critical open source software and your egg salad sandwiches.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#459

Post by randomsearch »

Excluding the 2/3 debacle, Guido has overseen an incredible progression in Python. It has become a contemporary lingua franca for coding, and the concept of a “pythonic” approach has been hugely influential.

I’m disappointed that he broke Eric Raymond’s rule: “When you lose interest in a program, your last duty to it is to hand it off to a competent successor.”

The email sounds bitter, which is tremendously sad, and I hope that after a break Guido will be able to oversee a more constructive transition.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#460

Post by rodorgas »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

It's the same behaviour of ordinary users, in general. A developer who uses your library is, basically, a user. They see your work as an obligation, not as a gift you are giving to everyone.
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