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“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

mail.python.org

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Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#431

Post by comesee »

nas wrote: post #424
comesee wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not implying an effort to prevent GvR from stepping down, but I don't think the lack of public consideration among core devs on why this happened is healthy either.

I don't see it as mystery as why it happened. Perhaps you are thinking there was some specific trigger for his stepping down. I don't think so. When the language becomes as popular as Python has, the head of the project is going to become a target for a lot of unwanted attention. The "assignment expression" PEP was a good example of that but not the sole cause. Even if infuriating jerks are 0.1% of the population, wh…

I'm not exactly implying that it's a mystery. Mystery or not it I think it warrants some public consideration. If the reason indeed was 0.1% jerks, that should be confirmed and addressed in writing.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#432

Post by ehsankia »

password4321 wrote: post #3

> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. PEP 572: Python assignment expressions has been accepted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17448439

Is the final syntax := surrounded by parenthesis?

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#433

Post by buserror »

klagermkii wrote: post #366
jacquesm wrote: post #275

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot. Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule. Not the nicest moment i…

On the subject of Linus, I wonder if he feels the same way about kernel discussions or if he is less at risk of this kind of burnout? Does being more empathetic when dealing with contributors and their suggestions extract a greater price on one's emotional state, compared to the more brash approach Linus has?

You nail it, I think. Being nice to contributors leads to bullying. Contributors assume, then feel entitled, and it gets harder and harder to say 'no' -- and it's probably very taxing.

Linus shoots first, that keeps the bullying down -- of course everyone else thinks he is the bully, however he's just protecting himself. I've spent many years victim of bullying, and I know that the only way to beat a bully is to out-bully him.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#434

Post by ScottBurson »

justinator wrote: post #341
ScottBurson wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you catch the part about "it makes you lose faith in the product"? ROFL

I caught the part about, "we have unitialized variables being passed everywhere which should be numbers" and that code, well, smells. I think the PHP team changing the return value of a function without putting anything in a changelog is a Very Bad Idea and a dev. should be pretty upset about that. Saying that the main dev. is doing this work as a charitable thing is fairly misleading as well. Buuuuut, I also think p…

I agree with this as far as it goes, but I think @zaphar has the better answer: a tax app should never have been written in PHP to begin with.

There's a fundamental quandary in language design: accessibility to novice programmers and suitability for serious work are in opposition. Novices, being novices, are unable to appreciate this problem.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#435

Post by hermitdev »

outworlder wrote: post #312
jacquesm wrote: post #275

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot. Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule. Not the nicest moment i…

> there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. True, although sometimes there isn't much to be done. He mentions he is tired of fighting and, with such an enormous project, how do you solve that? This does not bode well for the future of Python, though. The ecosystem is fragmented as it is, I can only imagine how things will lo…

What fragmentation do you see beyond v2 vs v3? I stopped subscribing to the mail list because most of what was coming in was just noise...

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#436

Post by hermitdev »

ehsankia wrote: post #432
password4321 wrote: post #3

> Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. PEP 572: Python assignment expressions has been accepted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17448439

Is the final syntax := surrounded by parenthesis?

Yes

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#437

Post by domoritz »

newen wrote: post #430
TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #427

I don't know if it's just me, but if you read the forums and bug reports related to open source projects, it feels like programmers today are a really entitled lot. The tone that people take when filing bug reports for what is basically free software is reprehensible. People are doing work for FREE to benefit you, and you take a tone with them like you are a prince and they are your royal goblet holders? Who taught t…

In the majority of cases, they are getting paid to code it (by some company, organization, etc). And they benefit from the popularity of the the software. So I don't think I need to see myself as a charity case or adopt a please please please attitude with them.

Where do you get "in the majority of cases" from? https://twitter.com/NumFOCUS/status/1017418416725155840.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#439

Post by justin66 »

jacquesm wrote: post #275

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot. Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule. Not the nicest moment i…

> Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all.

The lack of introspection that causes one to, in the heat of the moment, behave like a tedious buffoon on a public mailing list is probably associated with the lack of introspection that causes one to not reflect on having behaved like a tedious buffoon on a public mailing list.

On the other hand, I had never looked at the Python mailing lists until today and my main impression was that a real dictator on a mailing list without a Code of Conduct could have stopped some of that endless chatter in its tracks if he'd really wanted to. Absolutely no one springs to mind...

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#440

Post by sametmax »

lamontcg wrote: post #401
rabidrat wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also basically impossible to cut-and-paste code from a web forum. Was that "else" from the inner or the outer "if"?

Also makes auto formatting very difficult when whitespace indentation doesn't just affect readability but syntax.

Use black. It just works.
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