People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard • Hacker News Board

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#221

Post by dstroot » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

rvern wrote: post #135

ppeetteerr wrote: post #34

This is probably the greatest argument for big government. If we were to eliminate the supervision of the establishment over the safety and security of everyday life, it would be very time consuming to handle every single aspect of it. There is always the issue of an overreaching government, and that's where the left/right party split comes in. Each party either creates more regulation and protection or take some awa…

No, this is one of the greatest arguments for small government or no government. People are more rational when the cost to them of being irrational is larger. Voting for good policies is a public good. When a voter is one among three hundred millions of citizens, only 1/300,000,000 (on average) of the benefits of the vote befall the individual voter. This gigantic externality means that the democratic market will sev…

Is there more I could read to get educated about this? How can we construct polical systems that are better?

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#222

Post by hutzlibu » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

gilbetron wrote: post #186

hutzlibu wrote: post #176

I admit I only skimmed the article, but I still throw in a potential controversal counterthought (even though I don't disagree with the article from what I read): People* are dumb. Why? They have been breed like that for many generations. Because all the classic Civilisations and Empires needed lots of dumb workers and peasants who were able to do their simple work, but not smart enough, to organize any opposition ag…

That seems like an incredibly uneducated view of what the world was like previously.

Interesting, care to provide arguments?

I provided mine: we had empires as default, they needed lots of slaves. Slaves must be strong, but stupid. Smart slaves were trouble. So got sorted out.

Simplified, yes, but "uneducated" where?

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#223

Post by skadamat » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

copperx wrote: post #190

skadamat wrote: post #80

I would really really encourage everyone here to watch Alan Kay's recent talks on how poorly we understand systems and why it's critical we get better at managing them. Some good ones: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1R2jH4PQEo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9c7_8Gp7gI Some people have strong opinions about Alan Kay's CS / programming work and I'd really encourage them to put them aside and deeply understand h…

> Some people have strong opinions about Alan Kay's CS / programming work I'm curious. I wasn't aware of this. What are these strong opinions about?

Common ones I hear:

- He hasn't shipped anything popular (he's a researcher, expanding the tree of knowledge, not an engineer optimizing for shipping) - Smalltalk isn't as great as Alan makes it out to be (again he's a researcher) - That the computer revolution has happened but he's stuck in the 70's - Many, many more things

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#224

Post by skadamat » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

skadamat wrote: post #168

skadamat wrote: post #80

I would really really encourage everyone here to watch Alan Kay's recent talks on how poorly we understand systems and why it's critical we get better at managing them. Some good ones: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1R2jH4PQEo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9c7_8Gp7gI Some people have strong opinions about Alan Kay's CS / programming work and I'd really encourage them to put them aside and deeply understand h…

Some more talks by Alan, for people who are interested: https://tinlizzie.org/IA/index.php/Talks_by_Alan_Kay

Wish I could edit my first comment to include this, not sure why I can't.

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#225

Post by Koshkin » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #95

Reminded of this timeless Carl Sagan quote: "We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology."

Actually, we depend on many things (not just science/tech) most people do not understand.

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#226

Post by qazqwert » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

wrong!.

just look at this little thing...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNBG27S1kuMrx0oO19QUMPA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9XKUP6dw2E&list=PLe57autMFb... watch the full playlist only ! and i mean only!!! if you feel ready to kill yourself after understanding how stupid people are...

i mean man... the standards of the world are going down so badly....

shit education and people don't understand how (E!!!!)eyes are spelled/ basic multiplication...

people are stupid and there's nothing u can say that can disproof that we need better education! not idiots who say the world is too hard... people need to understand that...

i mean yeah not all people need to know everything about the world and to understand about every little country at the world but for example if we would look at this...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsnMObp9j0

at the moment people start to talk like this we can just start to see this bullshit....

i mean ok.... but the fact is that some people need 3 minutes to solve problems like 3x3 or 9x9 or.... thats unbelievable... just fucking unbelievable... !!! just look at this beauty https://youtu.be/ldP7ydEmapE?t=33s

well i believe I've made my point but for those of you who still believe the title/the article... that our world is fine... please... just................ stop the bullshit...

(p.s i believe at Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences but in this people there are non of them... no brain power... no ability to think/imagine/... and that is what wrong with the world... people learn from the media not from real education.... for people to grow smarter we need curiosity and good education...)

but the fact is that if people keep believing they are smart (with 100 or 90 or 80! or less points of IQ) then our world is fucked.... (please remember that and work for better education and... please re comment this and at least do not upvote this shit! )

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#227

Post by crpatino » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #176

I admit I only skimmed the article, but I still throw in a potential controversal counterthought (even though I don't disagree with the article from what I read): People* are dumb. Why? They have been breed like that for many generations. Because all the classic Civilisations and Empires needed lots of dumb workers and peasants who were able to do their simple work, but not smart enough, to organize any opposition ag…

You are wrong in every account.

No preindustrial civilization would have survived with a work force of dumb workers. They'd have all starved to death or, more likely, get conquered by smarter neighbours. Even 100 years ago, the relatively unskilled workers needed extensive amounts of specialized knowledge to complete their simple tasks efficiently.

Second, it is factually impossible for political elites to breed their populations in any significant way. While there have been some Great Cultures with a lifespan of millenia, most dinasties last no more than a handful of generations (the Romanovs of Russia being one of the longest runners at 300 years). Furthermore, there's the issue of social movility. Between the tendency of elite males to intercourse with their female subjects, the whole elite family falling in disgrace with their peers, etc; whatever genetic advantage the rulers do have at any time is guaranteed to reach the hoi-poloi sooner rather than later. And let's not forget the fact that there are always pockets of challengers to the current authority from within the "proletariat", edging any niche of influence available to better their lot in life; which puts them in a position to overthrow the current elite whenever those happen to loose their grasp of the political realities of the land (which, judging from history books, only takes one or two generations detachment from intense troubles).

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#228

Post by grzm » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

skadamat wrote: post #224

skadamat wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some more talks by Alan, for people who are interested: https://tinlizzie.org/IA/index.php/Talks_by_Alan_Kay

Wish I could edit my first comment to include this, not sure why I can't.

Comments are only editable for a limited duration (20 minutes, IIRC) after creation.

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#229

Post by 1996 » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #132

enraged_camel wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asimov’s Foundation series is an excellent commentary on this very phenomenon. One of the antagonists is a galactic empire that is technologically advanced, but has been stagnating and decaying slowly as those in power start viewing scientists with disdain and distrust. Over time the empire loses the ability to develop new technology, and ends up with those who can only maintain/repair existing technology (which even…

I'm a bit reminded of the Zentraedi from Macross , who know how to fly and fight with advanced spaceships/mechs, but not how to repair them or how they work. Except in that case it's because their patron race, the Protoculture, deliberately kept them dependent; Protoculture factories supplied as many ships and weapons as the Zentraedi might need, meanwhile, the average Zentraedi was kept at about a five-year-old huma…

Good catch! It reminded me the same thing, Macross.

There is indeed something keeping working class humans dependants: a focus on growth at all costs (including population growth). It is pervasive (the ideology is reinforced with ads) and makes you desire for example the latest iPhone X.

With a permanent growth, the basic problem is all humans are still born with a dependancy on housing and food (and other fancier things) that are in short supply. To attain these, humans need to work. Their work is used not just to maintain the basics, but to fuel growth.

Some people (mostly millenials) have found a solution: leave cheap, remain childless.

It causes many people to freak out about the economy, the birth rate, and how more immigration is needed to maintain growth. People don't really want that, and end up voting funny.

Re: People Aren’t Dumb, the World Is Hard

#230

Post by Koshkin » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

rvern wrote: post #135

ppeetteerr wrote: post #34

This is probably the greatest argument for big government. If we were to eliminate the supervision of the establishment over the safety and security of everyday life, it would be very time consuming to handle every single aspect of it. There is always the issue of an overreaching government, and that's where the left/right party split comes in. Each party either creates more regulation and protection or take some awa…

No, this is one of the greatest arguments for small government or no government. People are more rational when the cost to them of being irrational is larger. Voting for good policies is a public good. When a voter is one among three hundred millions of citizens, only 1/300,000,000 (on average) of the benefits of the vote befall the individual voter. This gigantic externality means that the democratic market will sev…

> No, this is one of the greatest arguments for small government

Well, soon enough, I am sure, the AI will satisfy both views on the government: it will control everything, and it will fit in your pocket.