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“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

mail.python.org

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Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was controversial syntax, inline assignment-as-expression. There's always a tension between "keep it simple stupid" and "let's make it better", especially when a large user demographic of Python are non-professional-programmers. Interestingly, C++ is going through the same process, with lots of great ideas being proposed, but the sum total of them being an even more complicated language (on top of what is probably…

That a customer of mine started a web project in Python 2 in 2015 after 7 years since the first release of Python 3 means that the Python BDFL and community managed the process horribly.

Could it be that many vendors still ship Python 2 as default for internal reasons (system-related scripts and what not rely on it)? Macs, for example ...

So you customer, not knowing any better, used whatever was on the machine already. If that's the case, that's really not the Python's community's fault.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#312

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot. Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule. Not the nicest moment i…

> there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all.

True, although sometimes there isn't much to be done. He mentions he is tired of fighting and, with such an enormous project, how do you solve that?

This does not bode well for the future of Python, though. The ecosystem is fragmented as it is, I can only imagine how things will look like without the well known leader.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#313

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot. Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule. Not the nicest moment i…

...there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong...

This is perfectly consistent with 99% of the management behavior I've witnessed for years in the enterprise. We understand that we live in a world of cause and effect, but almost everyone is so busy poking at the effect that there's no energy left to discover and treat the cause.

It's a shame that so many of us workers continue to have so much passion for the work at hand and so little for everything else. It seems like it almost always comes down to this.

Respect, Guido.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#314
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately every young developer is also schooled extensively in telling toy libraries apart from serious ones.

And why isn't the young developer being mentored by someone more senior before introducing a new dependency into a business critical system? Why is what amounts to a clear project management failure the problem of some open source developer who has published their personal pet project? If dependencies aren't reviewed before being used, how does such organization handle software license compliance (whether OSS or prop…

> And why isn't the young developer being mentored by someone more senior before introducing a new dependency into a business critical system?

Some critical assumptions:

- a more senior dev is available

- has time

- understand the system well enough to judge the impact

- is actually a better developer than the junior (in spite of being older / in the game longer)

> Why is what amounts to a clear project management failure the problem of some open source developer who has published their personal pet project?

It isn't, that was the point.

> If dependencies aren't reviewed before being used, how does such organization handle software license compliance (whether OSS or proprietary), for example?

Some critical assumptions:

- organizations keep a close eye on developers incorporating code under various licenses

- the people keeping an eye on that are qualified to make the calls

- the resources to keep an eye on this are available

> A clear cut case of trying to shift blame for own failings onto an unpaid volunteer that has helped to save the commercial developer time and money, IMO.

Sure. But that doesn't mean these things don't happen just about everywhere, many times per day.

It is rare to find a company where all of the assumptions labelled above are true all the time. And that's where the problem lies.

It's a clear case of there being no difference between theory and practice in theory but in practice there is, and rather a lot of it. Everybody knows in theory how software should be developed, but in practice hardly anybody actually does it that way. They're either out of time, options or qualifications (or all three) and they will do the job anyway.

That doesn't excuse it, but it does help you to understand it.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#315

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot. Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule. Not the nicest moment i…

I got the impression that this was mostly just a public announcement of something that has been talked about in private for quite some time, and was not in the least unexpected to the core devs. If this is the case then the reaction is suiting imho - after all, these people know each other very well and even if they didn't talk about it openly, they probably weren't surprised to receive the mail. Besides - it would have happened sooner or later. As he said himself, that bus is still lurking around the corner... [0]

I do hope he knows how his contribution changed the world for better for so many people. I have played around with many languages in my career but Python is the most productive and fun of them all. Thank you GvR, and may you have fun whatever you do!

[0] https://legacy.python.org/search/hypermail/python-1994q2/104...

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#316

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot. Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule. Not the nicest moment i…

Thanks Jacques, sadly this is human nature. Lower ranking males tend to act in ways that subvert higher ranking males, even if they aren't conscious of it or never admit to it. Benevolent dictators are never for life, it is only the aggressive dictators that persist until death. Authority isn't always nice, but required for a stable organization.

I love seeing rapidly graying true comments. Replying in your support, in case you’re not used to it but I guess you are. I think Testosterone is the driver, all people have it, but men have way more—significantly so, IIRC. Cheers

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks Jacques, sadly this is human nature. Lower ranking males tend to act in ways that subvert higher ranking males, even if they aren't conscious of it or never admit to it. Benevolent dictators are never for life, it is only the aggressive dictators that persist until death. Authority isn't always nice, but required for a stable organization.

> Lower ranking males tend to act in ways that subvert higher ranking males Just want to say: It has nothing to do with sex - women do this also. Please refrain from characterising whats going on with Python right now as being a consequence of some sort of masculinity out of control, because I fear that is a falsehood and does you - and anyone who tries to agree with you - a major disservice.

That was nicely said. The statement is factually accurate but is the corollary of how to lie with statistics (how to lie through omission by characterizing group X as possessing property Y when it is also possessed by X complement).

There is no wrongdoing mathematically, but it does show that selective vision is a force for damage if wielded improperly or with agenda.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#318
post #63
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good read. I feel like the "customer is always right" mentality does quite a bit of harm to OSS support. Also reminds me of that dev (who I can't seem to search up) who had their email printed as part of a open-source software license in a car manual and would get ridiculous email from people who had car trouble.

You're probably thinking of Daniel Stenberg of curl fame: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/11/14/i-have-toyota-corola/

Ha, hadn't seen that one before. I did enjoy this related post about him hacking someone's Instagram. https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/01/19/subject-urgent-warnin...

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks Jacques, sadly this is human nature. Lower ranking males tend to act in ways that subvert higher ranking males, even if they aren't conscious of it or never admit to it. Benevolent dictators are never for life, it is only the aggressive dictators that persist until death. Authority isn't always nice, but required for a stable organization.

> Lower ranking males tend to act in ways that subvert higher ranking males Just want to say: It has nothing to do with sex - women do this also. Please refrain from characterising whats going on with Python right now as being a consequence of some sort of masculinity out of control, because I fear that is a falsehood and does you - and anyone who tries to agree with you - a major disservice.

I would guess women do it as well, but the study I read on this topic only found it was true for men. I don't care if people disagree or dislike what I'm saying, it's true nonetheless. People harm themselves by not listening.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#320

Reading that thread is like reading an actual Monty Python plot. Guido van Rossum has given his life for this language and besides the obligatory 'thanks for all the fish' there isn't even a single person who stops the clock to evaluate what went wrong that they pushed out the person that started this all. Instead it's 'kthxbye' and they're already dividing up the cake to see who gets to rule. Not the nicest moment i…

What are they supposed to do? Python is bigger than GvR. A pretty big chunk of the tech industry depends on it. We were probably long past the point where a "BDFL" was healthy --- not because of any moral issue, but because over the long term the market is going to dictate where Python goes and how it grows, and people should stop kidding themselves that it might be otherwise.

I don't think it's at all unseemly that people involved in the Python project respond to GvR's LOA announcement by working out continuity. As someone who has to interact with a lot of Python code professionally, that's exactly the response I'd hope for.

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