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“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

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Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#151

Post by bluecalm »

jstimpfle wrote: post #68
jcelerier wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with the C-style of assignments is that it leads to this classic error: if(x = 0) {...} yeah, if you code on 20 years old compilers with no warnings. GCC 4.1 warns about this (with -Wall) and Clang 3.4 warns about this too, without any warning flag.

Not having a problem in the first place is preferable to fighting it with tools. == vs = is a classic mistake that I'm sure every C programmer has wasted some time on. (I'm just undecided if I prefer dealing with this very problem occasionally, or choosing either of the verbosity of := assignments or the non-orthogonality of = assignment statements plus := assignment expressions.)

Well, the best option would be to have := (or any other operator) as C style assignment in the first place. This is huge backward compatibility breakage though so the second best option is to use =.

You can require additional brackets around assignment if you use the returning value (or otherwise it's syntax error). They did that with the new one anyway.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#152

Post by dragontamer »

21 wrote: post #81
sametmax wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the very point of a bdfl : it assumes he knows better than others. Debating is for insight and cortesy, not mandatory.

But the B is for Benevolent. When a huge part of the community is against, does that B still stands?

The D is for dictator. When a huge part of the community is against, the Dictator overrules.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#153

Post by swyx »

freehunter wrote: post #137
vxNsr wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

O_o I wonder how many times I've spoken to someone and didn't realize who it was/how important they were because of the anonymity of the internet.

I know I've gotten into heated arguments on here or on Reddit with very well-known figures in the tech world without realizing who they are until after the fact. Luckily I don't think I've every argued with a developer about their own product before... that I know of.

i have a great solution: speak to everyone like they are a human being with feelings :)

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#155

Post by SwellJoe »

rurban wrote: post #109

Now this is a very dangerous situation, looking how perl5 was handled after Larry wall left them and stepped over to perl6. Constant infighting of the core devs, useless communication on the mailing list, not a single worthwhile feature being implemented in 15 years, even if perl6 and Larry designed tons of them suitable for perl5, total destruction of the syntax and the core. The better counterexample was perl6 with…

I think had it been a more clear demarcation, like this, Perl 5 would be in much better shape today. Perl 5 has been doing well for a few years now, but it took a while for the Perl 5 developer community to fill the void left by Larry; there just wasn't an acknowledgment that there was a void to fill. Larry didn't die, still kinda paid attention to Perl 5 for a while, but his heart wasn't in it and his attention eventually shifted fully to Perl 6.

Now, the Perl Pumpking (a sort of Benevolent Punching Bag for the Next Release; they do have the ability to decide which patches go in, but usually don't wield it like a dictator) along with the dev community, does their thing...the pumpkin gets passed along every year or three, and things continue. And, Perl 5 is developing nicely in a way that it didn't for about a decade while there was so much uncertainty. The Pumpking existed before Larry left Perl 5, but acted more in a support role (as I understand it), so it seems like it took a while for it to become an acknowledged executive position when Larry faded from view in Perl 5 development.

I think Guido is doing the best thing for Python. If his heart isn't in it, stepping back in a clear way is much more helpful that drifting away and leaving a void of leadership with no one feeling empowered to step up. There are people who are recognized as being contenders for the throne, and there's already a long-standing community process. I think Python will be fine.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#156

Post by cuckcuckspruce »

raverbashing wrote: post #54
deckarep wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried reaching software engineers on vacation? “Sorry I’ll be camping on some rock on Mars where I’ll have spotty internet access so....”

Whenever they say that they either mean they only have 2G connection or they somehow managed to get a Gbit satellite phone so they could be online several hours a day from the woods

Am I one of the few that is away from work when on vacation? I don't even bring my work phone unless I'm more than an hour's drive from my house.

When I'm on vacation, I'm working on me. Not for the company.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#157

Post by zbyte64 »

rurban wrote: post #109

Now this is a very dangerous situation, looking how perl5 was handled after Larry wall left them and stepped over to perl6. Constant infighting of the core devs, useless communication on the mailing list, not a single worthwhile feature being implemented in 15 years, even if perl6 and Larry designed tons of them suitable for perl5, total destruction of the syntax and the core. The better counterexample was perl6 with…

Can tell you performance has never been an issue for me and python. Usually when I see the claim come up it is usually a poor test (ie "let's see how fast we can read from a database") or not knowing the performance options available to python. You can use pypy for JIT compilation performance. You can use eventlet to add co-operative threading / evented processing. Use multiprocessing if you want to use more than one core. The point of python is to optimize for human understanding 1st, and if your abstractions are good then you can enable extra performance with other libraries.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#158

Post by TooBrokeToBeg »

Waterluvian wrote: post #56
jcelerier wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with the C-style of assignments is that it leads to this classic error: if(x = 0) {...} yeah, if you code on 20 years old compilers with no warnings. GCC 4.1 warns about this (with -Wall) and Clang 3.4 warns about this too, without any warning flag.

I think that having strong opinions on how others should be developing software is how communities become toxic like this. "Shooting yourself in the foot is your fault for not using a linter that detects accidental misuse of assignment!"

I'm still puzzled to why would a compiler allow assignment in an explicit conditional (outside of loop syntax). It's like a baked-in blindspot that most people just want to ignore for some reason. Some languages actually guard against this well enough (eg Kotlin) and say "don't". Even with guards in place, it's not all that complicated to work around in the edge cases where you might want to do it.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#160

Post by Bahamut »

pvg wrote: post #102
coldtea wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Python 3 breakage and async turned out to be prescient, fantastic decisions. Async maybe. Python 3 breakage? Did you forgot the /s tag?

This is a particularly ill-chosen thread to deliberately try to re-flame this flamewar. Most threads are.

To be fair, the person stating that Python 3 breakage was a fantastic decision probably should've avoided referring to that as such, as it almost certainly invites disagreement on a controversial topic.
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