Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#151

Post by badbug » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 3:51 PM UTC

blablabla123 wrote: post #143

ljw1001 wrote: post #51

This is not going to be like the other advice you get, but I've managed many projects in different organizations and I think it is sound. First and foremost, don't sound any alarms. Many organizations have common characteristics in this regard. First, they don't expect you to be on time. Sales may think you're going to launch on time, but it's in their financial interest to think so. The rest of the org probably made…

> Third, people do shoot the bearer of bad news. You can earn > a rep as a negative person if you make _true_ predictions > out-loud that don't fit the common desire. I've heard this very often, both as advise, complaint and even in an intimidating manner. And yes, I've seen this, people who stay kind of positive stay in their position even if they screw up a project completely so it has to be "rebooted". In fact I'v…

"Perception is reality"

You can be a negative/realist as long as your perceived value outweighs your "bad" attitude. The problem with this is that people are really bad at placing value on soft skills and all it takes is one clueless manager to sandbag you.

Everything op said above is spot on

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#152

Post by jobu » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 3:56 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #112

ljw1001 wrote: post #51

This is not going to be like the other advice you get, but I've managed many projects in different organizations and I think it is sound. First and foremost, don't sound any alarms. Many organizations have common characteristics in this regard. First, they don't expect you to be on time. Sales may think you're going to launch on time, but it's in their financial interest to think so. The rest of the org probably made…

Disagree. Just be real. When I joined my current company, they had a project kicking off with a ridiculously short timeline. I asked the product manager to think about how many stories were in the backlog, how many might be added as we went, how many stories they could get through per sprint given the team capacity and then you can put a rough date on it and continue adjusting every sprint as the backlog shrinks and…

> Just be real.

This works pretty well in smaller companies or startups, but corporate culture is usually political enough that it would be a disaster for your career.

> Then just ask how they want to deal with it.

Disagree. Anytime you find a problem you should come up with at least two solutions before you bring it to leadership. Managers hate people that only come to them with problems. You're closest to the project and you should be the one to know the situation and possible solutions.

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#153

Post by jf- » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 3:58 PM UTC

ljw1001 wrote: post #51

This is not going to be like the other advice you get, but I've managed many projects in different organizations and I think it is sound. First and foremost, don't sound any alarms. Many organizations have common characteristics in this regard. First, they don't expect you to be on time. Sales may think you're going to launch on time, but it's in their financial interest to think so. The rest of the org probably made…

OP needs to be concerned about the blame game if the project is a big deal. The manager won’t want to take blame, same for everyone else in the chain. The best thing OP can do is raise it quietly with the manager, and not terribly forcefully, note that this was raised. I also think going to anyone other than the direct manager is a bad idea. Then take some actions that can be used in retrospect as evidence that OP was trying to ameliorate the situation. Fundamentally this is a management issue, don’t let it become a game of blaming engineering for management’s flaws.

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#154

Post by sbov » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

kefabean wrote: post #64

adrianhel wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if it's an online solution, propose to roll out some features gradually. But yeah: 1. Be honest with everyone 2. Invest in online courses for everyone 3. Lay out a simple roadmap for the minimum MVP 4. Hustle And next time use my recipe for estimating. Spend ~ a day on this. 1. Split up everything into the smallest subtasks 2. Estimate the time all subtasks take. Uncertain? Write down a low and a high. Still unce…

The multiply by three approach has also worked for me in the past. People often estimate the time taken to do the task, typically not taking in to consideration the other aspects of their job (eg comms/planning/rework/productionisation/etc) needed to get said task done. I do like the use of pi though, I’ll be adopting this going forwards!

With experience you can account for this. What's hard to account for is some 3rd party vendor blowing you off, or slow rolling you, for weeks. Or management pulling you into another project.

Each integration point with a 3rd party automatically adds an extra 1 week+ to my estimates, depending upon the complexity.

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#155

Post by lostcolony » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

scardine wrote: post #120

scardine wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how things should run if the work culture was logic based but with rare exceptions it isn't. As a borderline autistic person I have a very direct communication style and lost account of how many times I burned myself for failing to "beat around the bush". You can't say "the project is doomed" even if it is true. You can't say it will be so over budget and take so long that it would be better to cut the losses…

PS: you do get some leeway when you just joined a company, enjoy your honeymoon grace period.

Nope. It will tar you forever amongst anyone you say it to as someone with a bad attitude, divisive, etc. I spent three years at a company where a VP basically viewed me dimly (if, admittedly, necessary) because I delivered bad news early on. It was polite and reasonable, but he was in a difficult place, had people actively whispering "Everything is fine" in his ear, and so when it eventually did blow up (and I was one of the ones who swooped in to fix everything ASAP), it was less "I should have listened" and more "(I) just added to (his) pain".

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#156

Post by jehlakj » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

jf- wrote: post #153

ljw1001 wrote: post #51

This is not going to be like the other advice you get, but I've managed many projects in different organizations and I think it is sound. First and foremost, don't sound any alarms. Many organizations have common characteristics in this regard. First, they don't expect you to be on time. Sales may think you're going to launch on time, but it's in their financial interest to think so. The rest of the org probably made…

OP needs to be concerned about the blame game if the project is a big deal. The manager won’t want to take blame, same for everyone else in the chain. The best thing OP can do is raise it quietly with the manager, and not terribly forcefully, note that this was raised. I also think going to anyone other than the direct manager is a bad idea. Then take some actions that can be used in retrospect as evidence that OP wa…

This isn’t fundamentally a management issue. Lead roles should be able to give them a better idea of how long a project will take. if they expect delays, it should’ve been brought up way before. There’s little to no room for change without a dent in the company’s reputation at this point.

However, these things happen time to time and when you have a stubborn PO like that from the beginning, you should have started looking elsewhere way before as a lead role. I’ve never heard of situations where a manager takes the blame. It always falls to the engineers.

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#157

Post by lostcolony » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #112

ljw1001 wrote: post #51

This is not going to be like the other advice you get, but I've managed many projects in different organizations and I think it is sound. First and foremost, don't sound any alarms. Many organizations have common characteristics in this regard. First, they don't expect you to be on time. Sales may think you're going to launch on time, but it's in their financial interest to think so. The rest of the org probably made…

Disagree. Just be real. When I joined my current company, they had a project kicking off with a ridiculously short timeline. I asked the product manager to think about how many stories were in the backlog, how many might be added as we went, how many stories they could get through per sprint given the team capacity and then you can put a rough date on it and continue adjusting every sprint as the backlog shrinks and…

Oh, hey. You had a fully fleshed out backlog, some initial tracking, with a PO who actually wanted to know rather than just tell the business "everything is okay" and block his ears (knowing that failure to deliver will reflect dev, not him).

You had leaders who were willing to listen to facts rather than prioritize consensus (which brings with it the belief that because you were the dissenting voice in the room demonstrates you're divisive and a problem).

You landed in a really good culture, just one that hadn't faced reality yet. You've yet to plumb the depths of corporate America. :P

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#158

Post by newbie912 » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

_vn5r wrote: post #133

scardine wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PS: you do get some leeway when you just joined a company, enjoy your honeymoon grace period.

Depends on the circumstances you joined the company. In some, you actually have to "earn your place" in the company, and most recommendations I've seen are "keep quiet and listen".

Absolutely.

I'm about 3 months in at a new company and starting to see areas for improvement. I just make a note and keep my mouth shut. In another 3-6 months I'll have earned the right to start diplomatically suggesting some of my ideas. For now i just try to understand the thinking that went into decisions that resulted in our current state.

If you want to go into a new organization and "be disruptive" and you're not a management consultant, be prepared for the likely outcome of failure.

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#159

Post by graedus » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #112

ljw1001 wrote: post #51

This is not going to be like the other advice you get, but I've managed many projects in different organizations and I think it is sound. First and foremost, don't sound any alarms. Many organizations have common characteristics in this regard. First, they don't expect you to be on time. Sales may think you're going to launch on time, but it's in their financial interest to think so. The rest of the org probably made…

Disagree. Just be real. When I joined my current company, they had a project kicking off with a ridiculously short timeline. I asked the product manager to think about how many stories were in the backlog, how many might be added as we went, how many stories they could get through per sprint given the team capacity and then you can put a rough date on it and continue adjusting every sprint as the backlog shrinks and…

> One time we had even already signed a fixed-bid contract before I was able to give them an estimate.

Only one time?? Are you hiring? :)

Re: Ask HN: As a team lead how to handle project going off the rails?

#160

Post by notyourwork » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

ljw1001 wrote: post #51

This is not going to be like the other advice you get, but I've managed many projects in different organizations and I think it is sound. First and foremost, don't sound any alarms. Many organizations have common characteristics in this regard. First, they don't expect you to be on time. Sales may think you're going to launch on time, but it's in their financial interest to think so. The rest of the org probably made…

My old boss had a phrase, "bad news doesn't age well". I have followed this throughout my career and it's served me well. I have not found it to be bad to be the bearer of bad news. I have found that it makes me perceived as transparent and honest about expectations.

Bearers of bad news are frowned upon when the bad news is their fault and not presented when its determined to exist. I think this is a distinction that should be made with your phrase.