The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea • Hacker News Board

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#211

Post by Retric » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

PietdeVries wrote: post #61

0x445442 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and what kills me is how ubiquitous tellocomms are for multi-site corps. I can't tell you how many meetings I've been in where everyone was at their desk, headphones on and each was playing the mute/unmute game in order to not blast everyone else on the meeting with the surrounding noise. Then, given all that, you get the coworker two seats down Slacking you. If you're Slacking folks within 10 seconds walking di…

The thing is that this working-from-home people significantly impact the efficiency of your office. It's a trend (could be the open-office space started it) but resulted in people easily working 2 or more days from home. That implies that any desk you have is empty about 40% of the time. Or: your entire office is not being used for 40%... So when bosses realised they were throwing money away, they came up with the op…

We used flexible desks for years as a consultant shop, but where given actual offices and could easily reserve meeting rooms. That's a much better cost / productivity trade-off.

Really though the cost of office space vs people making 100k/year means you don't actually need top optimize it that hard. The core problem is they tend to come out of separate budgets, so some middle manager can write down they saved x million on a review / resume while costing the company 3x that indirectly.

PS: Used Model S's are also something to keep an eye on.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#212

Post by trts » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

My open office of about 15 people per 350 square feet, row after row after row, is silent and without interaction almost completely. It makes me crawl out of my skin to wanting to leave. I can typically spend no more than about 5 hours there before I escape to home where I can actually get work done. I'd love my job if I didn't have to go to that place.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#213

Post by cullenking » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

hsnewman wrote: post #90

I absolutely agree with this, I see such a loss in moral and productivity where I work. What is funny though, is that the management has walled offices. I wonder why.

I'm management (and a dev). I have to manage health insurance, payroll, accounting, and interface with our lawyer. My screen is shielded, and I wish I had an office where I could take sensitive calls, and where I could have open a notice of wage garnishment on my desk without worrying that someone will see it, etc. Sorry, it's not because I want to look down on the plebs, I just have things I have to do that require privacy.

That being said, I wish everyone could have their own. But, as the person who writes the rent check and the salaries, I can't afford to go from $6k a month to $15k a month, plus $100k outlay to build out an office where everyone gets a private space. It's just incredibly expensive.

I'll do it if everyone would take a paycut though!

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#214

Post by linuxftw » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

tribune wrote: post #46

I wish everyone would give up on the "increases collaboration" thing and just admit that open-plan offices are about shoving as many people as possible into a given space

I agree. It feels like a 'if you repeat a lie often enough' kind of statements. I'll never buy into it, there is no evidence that anyone can show me. Open offices are terrible.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#215

Post by Zelphyr » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #6

The argument of "increased collaboration" that I keep hearing is kind of negated when people have the soccer game on and you're bombarded with constant cheering, which is my current situation. Even when soccer is over, you have to contend with people playing grab-ass all over the office, or jerks (like me) with annoyingly loud keyboards. The modicum of utility of me "jumping into a conversation" really goes out the w…

My previous employer and I had a conversation about the open office he wanted to set up in our new office space. I kept telling him it was a bad idea. He really wanted to encourage a "vibrant and collaborative environment!" I kept trying to tell him that what he perceived as vibrant and collaborative was his employees not getting any work done. Those generally weren't work conversations. They were jokes, catching up with life events, etc... Of course, he won. I wish I had this study to point to at the time.

Since then I've heard they have installed what can only be described as rows of tables. They're not really desks. Just long rows of white tables where one row of employees faces another with an 8" glass divider between the two employees. You know; for privacy.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#216

Post by cimmanom » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

the_jeremy wrote: post #179

WorkLifeBalance wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get any generic in-ear earphones and thread those under a pair of 3M peltor optime III ear defenders. You can listen to even fairly quiet music and you won't hear any conversations around you.

Any passive, over-ear firearm hearing protection also works (and most are cheaper than $40).

Finding over-ear gear that works well with glasses can be problematic, tho

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#217

Post by pnw_hazor » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

Companies treat programmers as costs that should be minimized. They manage programmers like children (toys and treats) or stenographers(typing pools) because it is cheap.

Whereas, lawyers in law firms are considered revenue generators and they are treated that way.

When I switched from programming to lawyering, one of the biggest differences I noticed was how the law firm staff and office manager were always trying to make it easier for me to generate billable hours. Years later it still feels weird having "staff" that take of care you and work hard to remove obstacles that may interfere with your work. I can't even make my own copies w/o a staff person offering to do that for me. Staff that catch me refilling the coffee pot will offer to do it for me.

And, the million dollar view from my high-rise office still takes my breath away.

Now instead of feeling like a tool/plebe I feel like a milk cow. The law firm's entire setup is to keep me working efficiently (not that its perfect but they try).

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#218

Post by bitwize » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #98

zeveb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument of "increased collaboration" that I keep hearing is kind of negated when people have the soccer game on and you're bombarded with constant cheering Is there anything less professional than watching a game at work? I really don't get why people do this, and why they think it's okay. Granted, I don't like sports — but I like TV, and I wouldn't watch TV at work. I like computer games, but I wouldn't play…

That and dogs in the office. Jesus what’s wrong with people. (The fact you’re being downvoted is proof we are living in the end times.)

What, you don't like meeting Dooglers at work? What kind of heartless person are you?

(Fun fact: Google is officially a dog company. Cats are highly discouraged.)

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#219

Post by cimmanom » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #182

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One dog usually isn’t a problem, but it might not scale up from there depending on the dogs. When will they allow us to take our toddlers to work? Could really save on daycare costs :)

Not a toddler, but I did take my 4 year old to work for a half day once when childcare fell through. I have my own office though and she was quiet, playing with blocks in a corner.

One of my colleagues brings his 5-y/o to work once a week (open office of course), and let me tell you: a chattering, running, squealing kid is even more distracting than the dogs and televisions put together.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#220

Post by ghaff » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

sotojuan wrote: post #88

geebee wrote: post #87

Here's what I posted three years ago on the topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9760414 Is it time to get depressed yet? This has been a topic for such a long time. It was in peopleware in 1987. I thought I discovered the topic when Joel (On Sofware) wrote about it in 2000. While a few people seem to enjoy open offices, the overwhelming majority of developers I know, or who chime in on HN, value a quiet place…

Reminds me of Dan Luu's take: > This book seemed convincing when I read it in college. It even had all sorts of studies backing up what they said. No deadlines is better than having deadlines. Offices are better than cubicles. Basically all devs I talk to agree with this stuff. > But virtually every successful company is run the opposite way. Even Microsoft is remodeling buildings from individual offices to open plan…

I suspect the answer is that it doesn't matter all that much at the end of the day. People have different preferences at different stages of their career and larger companies are always going to be distributed to at least some degree.

And, to the degree it does matter, 1.) the individual company's/team's context is probably relevant and 2.) companies/teams tend to take actions which at least somewhat mitigate the disadvantages of whatever approach they've chose. So an all-remote company may well have different decision-making processes than a co-located one, probably systematically holds F2F meetings of various times, and so forth. In open floor plans where people mostly work in the office, there's often some flexibility to spend some time off by yourself.