The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea • Hacker News Board

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#141

Post by dalbasal » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

--> Few managers have a schedule that allows, or even requires, long hours of uninterrupted time dedicated to a single creative pursuit.

As a manager in an open plan office, I will say this is categorically untrue. I have twelve people interupting me constantly, and I need to stay late or start early regularly so that I can get some uninterrupted work time. It also tends to work against self sufficiency. Rather than learn how to do something (or find out how to find out), it's too easy to ask someone (like me).

I do have a lot of meetings, but I also have work. I need to read specs, for example, and understand all the implications. I need to plan projects with complicated circular dependencies. These are "load lots of stuff into memory" jobs. It's impossible to do in 20 minutes stretches.

I'm also a sprint-and-rest type of personality. I get a lot done I. My most productive stretch of the week. Knocking me out of a productive roll can be real costly in time.

It also makes me a worse/lazier manager. Rather than make sure people are working on a nice big chunk of something, and have everything they need to get the job done, I can trickle information in as we go. That's invariably worse, but less work upfront.

There are definitely upsides too. You get a lot of cohesion for free, especially at a company in the 50-250 people range.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#142

Post by salvar » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

RandallBrown wrote: post #117

To throw some more anecdotes in with the rest of the comments, I love open offices. I've had my own office and found it lonely and boring. I never got less work done than at that job. Everything took longer because I had to stand up and walk to talk to my team. Instant messaging sort of worked, but if they didn't respond immediately, you didn't know if it was because they missed the message or they weren't actually i…

Completely agree with all of this. I believe the people describing their problems with open offices, but I'm just not at all one of them. I'd love if the conversation was less about open space offices being objectively bad for everyone, and more about finding a balance for both people who hate them and people who prefer them.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#143

Post by jpindar » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

sotojuan wrote: post #88

geebee wrote: post #87

Here's what I posted three years ago on the topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9760414 Is it time to get depressed yet? This has been a topic for such a long time. It was in peopleware in 1987. I thought I discovered the topic when Joel (On Sofware) wrote about it in 2000. While a few people seem to enjoy open offices, the overwhelming majority of developers I know, or who chime in on HN, value a quiet place…

Reminds me of Dan Luu's take: > This book seemed convincing when I read it in college. It even had all sorts of studies backing up what they said. No deadlines is better than having deadlines. Offices are better than cubicles. Basically all devs I talk to agree with this stuff. > But virtually every successful company is run the opposite way. Even Microsoft is remodeling buildings from individual offices to open plan…

Sweatshops succeed too.

At least developers generally quit before we get to the point of wanting to jump off the building.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#144

Post by mwcampbell » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

s-shellfish wrote: post #124

mwcampbell wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What specific drawbacks, or groups of people for whom face-to-face is a problem, do you have in mind? FWIW, I personally don't benefit from the "high bandwidth". I'm legally blind; I can't read facial expressions or body language, or even recognize specific faces. SO for me, face-to-face amounts to little more than audio communication with full frequency range and zero latency or drop-outs. All that to say that I can…

Some people are hyper-reactive to certain types of information. Whether you want to call it a preference or a handicap, I don't know. I personally have PTSD. I will nearly instinctively read things into faces that I can never be sure is there. This is perpetually confusing and often overloading for me, not to mention a useless waste of thinking cycles. It's taken me years to learn how to be less reactive, but it's al…

Thanks for that. So I gather that audio is also more difficult for you than text, but less difficult than face-to-face.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#145

Post by qaq » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

nojvek wrote: post #132

RandallBrown wrote: post #117

To throw some more anecdotes in with the rest of the comments, I love open offices. I've had my own office and found it lonely and boring. I never got less work done than at that job. Everything took longer because I had to stand up and walk to talk to my team. Instant messaging sort of worked, but if they didn't respond immediately, you didn't know if it was because they missed the message or they weren't actually i…

I thrive in hybrid environment. I go to office for half the day, while other half the day I either work from home, or in a coffee place or somewhere else where I can be in the zone for hours. But the downside is I’m a workaholic. I spend too many hours working.

Yep this is perfect setup for me too.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#146

Post by tomjen3 » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

corpMaverick wrote: post #28

zeveb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument of "increased collaboration" that I keep hearing is kind of negated when people have the soccer game on and you're bombarded with constant cheering Is there anything less professional than watching a game at work? I really don't get why people do this, and why they think it's okay. Granted, I don't like sports — but I like TV, and I wouldn't watch TV at work. I like computer games, but I wouldn't play…

People have been waiting for it for four years. And your national team only plays 4 or 5 games. Give'm a break.

Yeah they have been waiting four years four that, four years for euro cup, a year for tour de france.

Plus of course all the normal games, etc.

Add it all up and there is fucking sports all the time.

Again not a problem as long as you don't drag me down to that level.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#147

Post by groby_b » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

corpMaverick wrote: post #28

zeveb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument of "increased collaboration" that I keep hearing is kind of negated when people have the soccer game on and you're bombarded with constant cheering Is there anything less professional than watching a game at work? I really don't get why people do this, and why they think it's okay. Granted, I don't like sports — but I like TV, and I wouldn't watch TV at work. I like computer games, but I wouldn't play…

People have been waiting for it for four years. And your national team only plays 4 or 5 games. Give'm a break.

They have a break. It's called "time off".

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#148

Post by mpweiher » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

RandallBrown wrote: post #117

To throw some more anecdotes in with the rest of the comments, I love open offices. I've had my own office and found it lonely and boring. I never got less work done than at that job. Everything took longer because I had to stand up and walk to talk to my team. Instant messaging sort of worked, but if they didn't respond immediately, you didn't know if it was because they missed the message or they weren't actually i…

First sentence of TFA: "Not because there aren’t people who actually enjoy working in an open office, there are."

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#149

Post by Chris_Jay » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 3:00 PM UTC

YouKnowBetter wrote: post #104

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“flexdesks” or “hot desking” is just about the most juvenile reaction to working from home I can imagine. If a company believes it will gain more from “saving money” on open plan offices or hot desking than it will from just paying more to facilitate more and better work from employees through buying the best tools (a private office is a tool like a keyboard or ergonomic chair), it’s self-evidently a company to get f…

As much as I share your sentiment, fact is that these trivial savings show up nicely on someone's target and the deteriorating effect shows up somewhere else, if at all. The open office I am in ATM is one such places where a handfull of people (loud, discussing totally not related to work, factually completly idiotic conversations) spoil it for all others. There is nothing to be done about these people since they've…

I don't understand why you can't tell them the reason you're leaving without burning a bridge - "I don't work well in an open-office environment, I found I was constantly distracted and inefficient. It's just not the right environment for me to thrive" isn't untrue or pointing fingers, and it's valuable feedback for your employer.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#150

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 3:00 PM UTC

massenburger wrote: post #53

I'm sure this is just anecdotal, but we all kind of like our open office layout. We're not just at desks sitting shoulder to shoulder. They're more of these horseshoe-esque things, and you have plenty of room between you and the next person. We have an open ceiling, so the A/C provides some good, loud background noise to drown out conversations. And lastly, we're pretty strict about having people IM you before they c…

Vaulted ceilings with lots of natural light can make me prefer an open office. Better if it’s more like a design studio with a lot of artifacts/plush to break up the desk monotony.