A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to • Hacker News Board

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#191

Post by balt_s » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

CuriouslyC wrote: post #181

swebs wrote: post #176

>Trees exchange chemicals with fungus, and send seeds—essentially information packets—with wind, birds, bats, and other visitors for delivery around the world. Simard specializes in the underground relationships of trees. Her research shows that below the earth are vast networks of roots working with fungi to move water, carbon, and nutrients among trees of all species. These complex, symbiotic networks mimic human n…

How is a molecule different from a word? How is a spatial and temporal sequence of molecules different from a sentence? I think language, like consciousness, is one of those things that a lot of people have a chauvinistic definition for...

This has been posted here before, but your comment put me in mind of http://www.davidbrin.com/nonfiction/dogmaofotherness.html. Might be worth a quick read.

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#192

Post by vinayms » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

Even before I opened the link I had an inkling that this would be Michio Kaku level good for a documentary kind of sensationalism filled piece. I was not wrong.

While glancing through, I didn't come across any mention of "intent to communicate". Not sure if any of the links have. It seems like too much is made out of the act of "dropping off things", and perceived as communication. While it is something that we all have done in high school (or at work, sheesh) while analysing the actions of our crush to check for signals, I am pretty sure it has no place in science.

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#193

Post by fifnir » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 1:55 PM UTC

CuriouslyC wrote: post #184

fifnir wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We will decide it is alive but not understand fully what that means. I don't understand fully what this comment means. If alien life has DNA (chemistry) like ours, we learn that life as we know it either started somewhere and spread or was re-invented. If it doesn't, but is obviously alive (move on its own will, hunts, i dont know) we learn that life can exist with different chemistries. If it's not obviously alive…

The odds that alien life would reinvent DNA are basically nil. If we find DNA based life elsewhere that is a slam-dunk for panspermia.

I agree, but I'm not too sure about that, but I also don't know enough chemistry to convincingly argue for the opposite..

Are there many varieties of self-replicating molecules? (which I understand is needed to start life) Maaaaybe there's only so many ways that this can get started and RNA is the "only" way to do it. In a similar way that we have a hard time imagining non-carbon life since no other element behaves in the ways that carbon does

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#194

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

koliber wrote: post #187

The question I see is what do we define as language and communicating. Do we mean that trees can relay information to each other, as well to other species? Sure, that makes sense. For example, you could make a case that a large tree communicates with the saplings in the underbrush. By shading them, it is letting them know that it is the alpha individual in this area, convincing them not to grow. We can also say that…

I think the dividing line is deliberate communication - a dog barks because it "wants" to communicate. But then the counter-argument rejects the will, and comes down to "aren't all our actions because of basic chemistry?". I reject that assumption - not because there's a some sort of supernatural element, but just because a whole can be greater than the sum of its parts. There's a massive rift between "sun makes tree grow, preventing other trees from getting the light" and "I'm trying to sell my wares by expressing concepts of value, numbers, and desire".

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#195

Post by modzu » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:01 PM UTC

vinayms wrote: post #192

Even before I opened the link I had an inkling that this would be Michio Kaku level good for a documentary kind of sensationalism filled piece. I was not wrong. While glancing through, I didn't come across any mention of "intent to communicate". Not sure if any of the links have. It seems like too much is made out of the act of "dropping off things", and perceived as communication. While it is something that we all h…

its a horribly lazy click-bait article with no references.

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#196

Post by abhishekjha » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:04 PM UTC

koliber wrote: post #187

The question I see is what do we define as language and communicating. Do we mean that trees can relay information to each other, as well to other species? Sure, that makes sense. For example, you could make a case that a large tree communicates with the saplings in the underbrush. By shading them, it is letting them know that it is the alpha individual in this area, convincing them not to grow. We can also say that…

One observation about communicating would be : the information transfer should be voluntary. Trees should be able to kind of shut up and speak up without threatening their own existence.

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#197

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:05 PM UTC

jeandejean wrote: post #141

These theories of humanizing trees become more and more popular lately. But it seems based on observation and speculation only, which is almost certainly completely biased against what people would like to hear: that trees are like the lord of the rings ents. How cool! Not to mention that Waorani just evidently lack abstraction in their language, which is at the root of understanding the world, not missing some obvio…

[deleted]

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#198

Post by fifnir » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

raadore wrote: post #179

Catholics have know this truth about God’s creations for a very long time :) http://blog.franciscanmedia.org/franciscan-spirit/saint-fran...

So choosing to believe that a person 900 years ago actually talked to animals (and incidentally had nothing better to say to them besides how god is great) is now "knowing the truth" that there are molecular systems that would be interpreted as communication between plants?

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#199

Post by sAbakumoff » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:11 PM UTC

tibarion wrote: post #185

sAbakumoff wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the title funny, it's not a low effort to share this reaction with everyone.

No, it definitely is. I think you should reread the welcome page: https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html "The most important principle on HN, though, is to make thoughtful comments. Thoughtful in both senses: civil and substantial. The test for substance is a lot like it is for links. Does your comment teach us anything? There are two ways to do that: by pointing out some consideration that hadn't previously b…

yeah at least people have fun on reddit and don't blow up scandals from innocent LoL comments.

Re: A biologist who believes that trees speak a language we can learn to listen to

#200

Post by everdev » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

There's another great book about this subject called The Secret Life of Trees. The basic premise is that in response to physical conditions trees will produce certain chemicals that when received through the root system by other trees cause a similar, pre-emptive response in those trees, mainly for things like fighting off diseases and bugs.